5/30 - Delusion and Zazen p. 102

[John]

Re: 5/30 - Delusion and Zazen p. 102

Who is Pascal anyway? :roll:

The only thing I ever remember about Pascal is his famous Wager. http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/?page_id=8

I have found it amazing how many Christians have this idea at the back of their belief in their faith. And it's such a self-centred way of thinking. But, then, a lot of us probably come into Buddhism for similarly self-centred rewards

Gassho,
John

[John]

Re: 5/30 - Delusion and Zazen p. 102

Or as Bill said on an earlier thread:

Jazz musicians have to hold onto concepts, like chords, loosely or they will box themselves into a zone of rigidity where creativity is difficult. So, the point of this rambling digression is to say that concepts are useful on one level, but the looser we hold to them, the more creatively we can respond to the given situation.

Gassho,
John

[Eika]

Re: 5/30 - Delusion and Zazen p. 102

Who is Pascal anyway? :roll:

The only thing I ever remember about Pascal is his famous Wager. http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/?page_id=8

I have found it amazing how many Christians have this idea at the back of their belief in their faith. And it's such a self-centred way of thinking. But, then, a lot of us probably come into Buddhism for similarly self-centred rewards

Gassho,
John

Good point. Pascal's Wager illustrates his concern about self-interest (how pitiful is religion if it is based on reward?). Likewise, I think I am just beginning to get over the idea that Zen will help me get something. Still a work in progress . . .

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 5/30 - Delusion and Zazen p. 102

Yes Irina - you are giving an example of what most would think of as a loneliness producing situation - being far from friends and family. We can all find reasons like that. In 'Everyday Zen' Joko Beck suggests that when we are alone we are just that and nothing more. The loneliness is an add-on created by our mind comparing itself with the situation of others. For instance, I don't like it at this time of the year when my friends all clear off to sunny places and I can't go because travel is so difficult for me now.

Right, John. I heard somewhere that people get more depressed around holidays and notice myself how questions concerning the plans for the coming holidays can influence my emotional state and induce a feeling of loneliness. The feeling itself comes from those thoughts that from the start are not even mine and the belief that one is bound to feel lonely by oneself. We have a big one coming up next week end - the summer solstice, which is sort of like summer Christmas but is more fun already because you can actually see things (unlike in winter) :lol: and since I will be all by myself there will be some pity party looks I guess. :roll: I guess

But if we could see through all these negative thoughts we might not be very human and be cold and devoid of emotion?

I have been thinking about it, too. :lol: Even a simple fly has emotions (it can get irritated) but is devoid of feelings so feelings is something that we humans have (I am not sure about our closest in the animal world relatives, the bonobo apes). I like the words of one of the teachers "Feel the feeling and drop the story" and really without a story there is not much feeling left yet would we have had Shakespear's sonnets and plays had he dropped the stories? :roll:

Gassho,

Irina

I understand the danger behind living by concepts and not through one's direct experience.
But are there no intellectual concepts in Zen? Is it not a trait of our mind to intellectualise our experiences?

I think we have to be able to use concepts as functional tools but be able to realise their fictional nature and not think they are the real thing , just as a map is not the real terrain,

Gassho,
John[/quote]

[John]

Re: 5/30 - Delusion and Zazen p. 102

I have been thinking about it, too. :lol: Even a simple fly has emotions (it can get irritated) but is devoid of feelings so feelings is something that we humans have (I am not sure about our closest in the animal world relatives, the bonobo apes). I like the words of one of the teachers "Feel the feeling and drop the story" and really without a story there is not much feeling left yet would we have had Shakespear's sonnets and plays had he dropped the stories? :roll:

Nice post Irina. It's the way we humans dwell on things mentally that causes problems, isn't it? I liked Echhart Tolle's story about the way two ducks were having a fight, but as soon as it was over they both flapped their wings to dispel the negativity and sailed happily away. They didn't mutter to themselves 'wait till I see her again, I'll show her who is stronger, I shouldn't have to put up with that kind of treatment etc..'

Gassho,
John

[Tb]

Re: 5/30 - Delusion and Zazen p. 102

Hi.

Two tomatoes were crossing the road. one was run over and squashed.
The other tomatoe got to the other side, turned around and shouted : "ketchup!"

Do like the tomatoes, Keep on going, dont "get stuck".

May the force be with you
Tb

[Bansho]

Re: 5/30 - Delusion and Zazen p. 102

Hi,

Moreover, it is of utmost importance here not to indulge in self-observation. Self-observation, or observing the effect of our zazen, such as being calmer or more agitated, not only misses the mark, but the moment we do so, we impair zazen and go off the track. Zazen has nothing to do with thinking about results. It is essential just to aim at the posture of zazen without trying to observe its effects.

This is a real tricky one...

Gassho
Ken