2/22 -The Self that Lives the Whole Truth p. 27

[Jundo]

The Truth, the Whole Truth and Nothing but the Truth ...

Gassho, J

[Janice]

Jenny asked in the previous thread (viewtopic.php?t=516):
“Am I understanding Uchiyama correctly when I think he is telling us that we are actually each living our own unique life experience, and the "oneness" is in fact where Universal Self is living freshly through each one of us, but our experience of that, moment by moment, is ours alone?”

And Jundo replied “…go sit with that. I mean, you could say it like you said it. Just don't get too caught up in ideas of it….”

In this section of the book, Uchiyama says “Self is what is before you cook it up with thought.” And footnote 12 added this:

“A fish swimming in a stream is alive and fresh, but once it is caught it gets processed. In the same way, all the terms we use to discuss universal self are a sort of processing or categorizing of what is always alive, fresh, and unprocessable.”

That quote resonated with me. And I believe that Jundo was conveying this same idea when he said to Jenny “just go sit with that.”

Sometimes when teaching the concepts of product costing and costs of quality in the classroom, we use a production simulation where students build vehicles with LEGOs. The experiential exercise conveys the nature of manufacturing (which can seem too abstract until this point) and provides some insight into the activities and resources that give rise to costs.

After reading footnote 12, I considered the differences between the flow of thought in “just sitting” and the flow of material through a production line. In zazen, we do not pick up the pieces, nor combine them, nor evaluate the quality. Nothing is made. Nothing is constructed.

At times I can be with what is without being carried away by my own stories or evaluation if I'm alert to the nature of this habitual processing. But the universe is the entire flow.

[Janice]

This section of the book also reminded me of Dogen: "To study the self is to forget the self, and to forget the self is to become one with all beings."

Seeing beyond concepts about my identity, I may recall that I am this but not only this.

[Jenny]

The Self that lives the whole truth

Janice thanks for your comments re Jundo's apt reply to me regarding
Uchiyama's "Self". I now realise studying P 27 onwards that I was in fact trying to rationalise or get clear in my mind (cooking it up with thought, in fact!) his explanation of something alive and ungraspable which I wanted to process and "know" for myself. It's a bit like dropping an old, stale concept or belief but then putting a new one in its place, I imagine, instead of letting go of all concepts. Ah well - back to "Don't know" again!

[Janice]

Jenny,

I was glad you said what you said in posing that question. You had seen something I hadn't seen and had difficulty comprehending. And it set the stage for this week’s reading.

But what we are unavoidably doing here on the forum is processing. We are trying to express our own understandings and experience and that requires communication in words that separate. At the same time, we know that there's always more; there is the ineffable.

Janice

[Jenny]

The Self that lives the Whole Truth

Janice. Thank you again re communicating in words about something
that is inexpressible.
I was interested in your example of providing insight to your students with an experiential exercise to explain something abstract using Lego.
It reminded me of my difficulty at school with mathematics, particularly
fractions. If only my teacher had cut up an orange into quarters etc., I
would have "got it"!
Uchiyama for me, in his explanation of what the Self means to him
in his own experience, is cutting up the orange. This helps me "see"
differently, but I then have to live my own moment-to-moment
experience of "what is".
Jenny

[John]

I agree with what Jenny and Janice are saying here. But I'm afraid I can't come up with anything 'alive and fresh' or new to add to that. The 'universal self and individual self' idea sounds pretty much like the ocean and waves analogy to me,

Gassho,
John

[Gregor]

Maybe this is just pointing out that the "self" we think is ourself is not the whole picture, that what we truly are is realized once we learn to open up that clenched fist we create with our thoughts and self obsessed stories.

[Tony-KY]

Everyone's individual life is its own unique experiences (with their unique perspective truths), and is also the universal self where it is one with everyone else's individual life (with all of their unique perspective truths).

In an existential sense, the first part is very easy for me to understand. But without appealing to metaphysics (the author says it's concrete), I just cannot comprehend how there can be a unity with all lives. It's a stumbling block for me.

Perhaps it cannot be truly conceptualized at all, and that's why there is zazen? :?

Gassho,
Tony

[Gregor]

Every leaf is it's own individual leaf, but if we take a step backwards we see that they are all part of the same tree.

Maybe that helps make it more concrete?

[John]

Yes Greg. I can understand the theory provided by the metaphors. It's just seeing it, applying the idea in daily life, or even acting as if it were true that I find so hard - and isn't that what Tony is saying too?

Gassho,
John

[John]

Maybe it's our individualistic Western societal enculturation that causes us problems with this? I hate being dependent on others.

"...Buddhists do not think that "I" is "I" and "you" is "you" when each of us is Separated from the other. "I" is possible when "you" exists, so with "you" who is possible through the existence of "I." This consideration is very important, as it constitutes one of the fundamental principles of Buddhist ethics. For according to Buddhism an unconditional assertion of egoism is due to the ignorance of the significance of the individual. Most people imagine that the individual is a final reality, stands by itself, has nothing to do with other fellow-individuals; in fact their existence is tolerated only so far as it does not interfere with his own interests. They first build a formidable fort around individualism and look down at their surroundings, thinking that the position must be defended at all costs. For it is their conception of life that with the downfall of individualism the universe goes to pieces.

The Oriental mode of thinking, however, differs from this. We take our standpoint first on that which transcends individuals, or we take into our consideration first that which comprehends all finite things, that which determines the destiny of the universe; and then we come down into this world of relativity and conditionality, and believe that the earth will sooner or later pass away according to the will of that which controls it. That is to say, individuals will not stay here forever, though the whole which comprises individuals will. Therefore, Oriental ethics considers it of paramount importance to preserve the whole at all hazards, whatever may be the fate of individuals.

For instance, suppose my country is threatened by a powerful enemy, and I will, when called for, sacrifice everything personal and try to do my best for the conservation of my national honor and safety. This is what is called patriotism. My parents are old and they are not able to take care of themselves, and I will do everything for their comfort and alleviate the loneliness of their declining age. Did they not bring me up to this stage of manhood? Did they not go through all forms of hardship for my sake? Did they not care for me with infinite tenderness of heart? Do I not owe them all that I am to-day? Did they not help me to this position and enable me to do whatever is within my power for the welfare and preservation of the whole to which I belong? When I think of this, the feeling of gratitude weighs heavily on me, and I endeavor to be relieved of it by doing all acts of lovingkindness to my parents. This is what you call filial piety, and the same consideration will apply to the cases of teachers, elder people, friends, and family.

Whatever be the defects of Oriental ethics,--and I think they are not a few,--I firmly believe that what makes Oriental culture so unique is due to the emphasis laid upon patriotism, filial piety, faithfulness, and abnegation of self......"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zfa/zfa18.htm

Gassho,
John

[Lynn]

Well, I'm stumbling a bit with the following passage:

The whole or universal self is the force that functions to make the heart continue beating and the lungs continue breathing, and it is also the source of what is referred to as the subconscious.

This inclusive self is at heart the creative power of life. It is related to what the Judeo-Christian tradition calls the creative power of God. That power--what is immediately alive and also what is created--that is self too.



Is he saying our universal self is nothing more than our subconscious?? Is he really equating the subconscious to the creative power of God??? :shock:

Jundo?

In Gassho~

*Lynn

[kalka2]

Hello,

I acquired a copy of the book, and I've been trying to catch up so I can join the discussions. I was quite confused by the schedule until I realized that I'm reading the 1993 printing. Many of the sections and chapter titles are in a radically different order.

Oops.

[paige]

Hello Lynn,

I read this in the context of the 8 consciousnesses, as laid out in some early Zen texts. I've heard the ālāyavijñāna (store-conciousness) equated with the Judeo-Christian 'soul' or the subconscious/ unconscious mind (sometimes even in the Jungian sense!).

I personally think that these are somewhat tortured analogies, and create more confusion.

I could also be way out to lunch, maybe Uchiyama isn't talking about the ālāyavijñāna at all!