2/1 - The Four Seals(II)

[Shiju]

Re: 2/1 - The Four Seals(II)

Oh, forgot to post this yesterday ...

2/1 - The Four Seals(II) - All dharmas are without self & All things are as they are p.11

Is there a conflict there? Not at all, said Dr. Dogen.

Gassho, J

Hello, Jundo.

As a way of addressing this apparent conflict, would it be accurate to say that "suchness" may be understood only in the context of impermanence? Things are not solid or substantial, because all conditioned things are impermanent and therefore empty of separate selves. But within the net of impermanent conditions, things exhibit suchness. They are as they are.

While we're discussing suchness, I'd be interested in exploring why, in Zen literature, the realization of suchness is so often associated with the hearing of a sound. Kyogen heard a stone hitting bamboo and was awakened. Mumon heard the beating of the drum announcing mealtime and realized suchness. Master Gensha instructed Kyosho to listen to the mountain stream and “enter Zen from there!” For his dharma talk, Fudaishi struck the table with a stick. This kind of thing happens often in Zen stories, and it points to a sudden, pre-reflective experience, in which the thing perceived is both real and impermanent, present and insubstantial.

Gassho,

Ben

[Kelly M.]

Up until this book, I had only ever heard of the 3 seals. I rather like this 4th one that "all things are as they are". It seems to complete the equation.

Was this fourth seal actually taught by the Buddha, or did it come at a latter date?

G,
K

[Jundo]

Oh, forgot to post this yesterday ...

2/1 - The Four Seals(II) - All dharmas are without self & All things are as they are p.11

Is there a conflict there? Not at all, said Dr. Dogen.

Gassho, J