6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

[Janice]

This is part of the "Living Wide Awake" section of the book, as is the 6/6 topic.

[Bansho]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

Hi,

We who practice zazen hold this vow [of true repentance], and function with it as our life direction, while at the same time we just keep returning to zazen repenting at being unable to carry out that vow. This is what constitutes the religious life of the Buddhist practitioner: living by vow and repentance, and being watched over, protected, and given strength by zazen. Where there is no vow, we lose sight of progress; where there is no repentance, we lose the way. Vow gives us courage; repentance crushes our arrogance. This is the posture of a vivid, alive religious life.

Simply beautiful.

Gassho
Ken

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

A few things I struggled here with :roll: .

The chapter opens with a paragraph containing a quote from the NT (John 9:3):

Doing zazrn is letting go of clinging to human thought, and this means letting go, or throwing out, human arrogance. With that we become, as the Bible says, "as God wills", and then "the works of God will be manifest" (John, 9:3)

.

John 9, 1-12 tells the story of Jesus healing the blind man.

2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi,[a] who sinned, this man or his parents, that caused him to be born blind?”

3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned. This happened so that[b] the works of God might be revealed in him.

I get the metaphor: we walk around being blinded by ignorance but I don't understand (once again) why Uchiyama would borrow the quote talking of God from the Bible and to me it sounds that the verse itself says the man was blind so that God "might be revealed in him" (in the translation I found).

Another, very confusing for me idea is that we can actually function "as a person"

not tying one phenomenon to another, ...prior to thought

Would I even be able to make it to the cushion without actually recognising the cushion as such (an object I can sit on during zazen as compared to other objects in the room and separate from me? At first I though U. was talking of this "before the separation of things into this and that (p112)" experience being limited to zazen periods only but reading through the chapter I think I misunderstood.

I guess my questions are:

a)can we actually live our every day lives without employing thoughts (is it feasible?)

I just changed my shoes getting ready to go home from work and although I did not think think of it I am almost sure I was still thinking in order to get the right shoe on the right foot etc. Maybe I am able to function prior to thinking without realising it? :lol: If so, most of it would be instinct or learnt-in behaviours and this is not what Uchiyama talks about, I guess.

b) Why would we try to? Would it not be attainable to learn not to be "pulled around by the thoughts and emotions"?

I heard Zen teacher Diane Musho Hamilton mention once that our human brains are wired so that if I rub my thumb against say the middle finger I will automatically choose one of them to be an object and one a subject even though I might not be aware of it. I guess we have to devide in order to survive or else this sack of skin with all its content would be in big trouble crossing the street in a few minutes, not being able to separate itself from the approaching heap of metal. I would try though not to get started on these-people-in-cars-should-discover-what-bikes-are train of thought upon seeing a car and get all emotional about it ending up worrying about our beautiuful planet. :lol:

Gassho,

Irina

PS If anything, Uchiyama's last chapters really make me think :lol:

[CharlesC]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

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[CinnamonGal]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

The nearest I can come to understanding "letting going of clinging to human thought" is what I experience when I go hiking sometimes. As I start hiking my mind is full of thoughts but after two or three hours I sometimes feel a sense of joy arising in me. There is just the walking and the world around me and I+it feels good. It seems like I have dropped most thoughts from my mind. When I stop to take a break, I am not sitting there thinking "wow, this view of the hills is beautiful", It is more as if I am part of the scenery and it is a joyful feeling. Contrast, this with driving in a car to a viewpoint and getting out of the car and looking out at the view for a few minutes. You might as well be looking at a picture postcard (and what a lot of people do in this situation is immediately get their camera out and make their own postcard).

Hi Charles,

Thanks, this was really helpful.

I certainly recognise the experience from Nordic skating when the head only is filled with the sound from the skates cutting the ice, the sound of ice cracking somewhere deep; the sky is reflected in ice so you cannot say where ice starts and where it ends and you get the feeling you are flying...

Yes, I think no thoughts as such then. :lol:

Walking (hiking) makes me come into this state but only the kind of walking when I am not going some place to be to do something.

The question is how do I get into this state at work or doing other things that demand thought discrimination. :shock:

I came to the book club rather late in the reading of this book but I am finding so much more to think about in each section than I could have imagined. The process of trying to write something is very rewarding. Without this effort I would not get nearly so much from the book.

Gassho,

Irina

[Tb]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

I came to the book club rather late in the reading of this book but I am finding so much more to think about in each section than I could have imagined. The process of trying to write something is very rewarding. Without this effort I would not get nearly so much from the book.

Quite so.

May the force be with you.
Tb

[Tb]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

b) Why would we try to? Would it not be attainable to learn not to be "pulled around by the thoughts and emotions"?

Try? there is no try.
only do or do not.

and even Yoda was wrong...

May the force be with you.
Tb

[Eika]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

Irina wrote:
The question is how do I get into this state at work or doing other things that demand thought discrimination.

Hi all,

I've seen other questions like this and have always had conflicting thoughts about my understanding of this. Here's my best shot at it today: We sit on the zafu and accept everything (as best we can) that happens when we do that with correct posture. Off the zafu, we live our lives and use the precepts to assist with regulation of actions, but we do not attempt to alter our thoughts or reach a particular state of mind. By sitting often, our thought patterns change of their own accord, we don't have to try to be anything other than ourselves.
Put another way, trying to reach the state that Charles mentioned probably wouldn't work. The way he gets to that state is to hike and let whatever happens happen (I'm guessing). Irina mentioned skating, same thing, immersing herself in the act is enough, but an attempt to create a particular state of mind is most often self-defeating. The way to play a great jazz solo is to execute the methods one has spent hours practicing without judgement. In other words, trust the practice.

Maybe Jundo could help us out with this.

Gassho,
Bill

[John]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

The way Uchiyama presents 'repentance' in this chapter makes me realise the difference between Zen and Christianity. From my reading of this, and I didn't notice this before, there doesn't seem to be any concept of guilt in Buddhism?

In other words, our thought of having done something bad is only based on some conventional, changing, standard or idea. Before absolute reality it is totally meaningless.

To truly repent does not mean offering an apology; rather, repenting requires facng life straight on, and letting the light of absolute reality illuminate us.

Okay, but he seems to have redefined the word 'repent' to such an extent that, IMO, he might have been better to use a different word entirely. Most definitions of the word would seem to me to require some kind of remorse for past acts and a resolve to change in the future.

Gassho,
John

[Tony-KY]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

John said,

[quote][Okay, but he seems to have redefined the word 'repent' to such an extent that, IMO, he might have been better to use a different word entirely. Most definitions of the word would seem to me to require some kind of remorse for past acts and a resolve to change in the future.
/quote]

On page 116 :

[quote]To truly repent does not mean offering an apology; rather repenting requires facing life straight on , and letting the light of absolute reality illuminate us.
[quote]

I take this to mean that repentence is maintaining a self-awareness of our deviating from the path or the vow as a check on our own conceit. But this deviating isn't a bad or evil act to apologize or seek forgiveness for. It's just a reminder or a call that we must return to zazen to get back in line with the truth of life.

I agree that the word "repentence" has more of a sense or atonement or making amends (to whom?). It still seems to me that these parallels between Buddhism and Christianity do seem a little forced and incongruous. I think that there is no good/sinful thoughts or acts in Buddhism, but skillful/unskillful thoughts and acts.


Gassho, Tony

[John]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

I agree that the word "repentence" has more of a sense or atonement or making amends (to whom?). It still seems to me that these parallels between Buddhism and Christianity do seem a little forced and incongruous. I think that there is no good/sinful thoughts or acts in Buddhism, but skillful/unskillful thoughts and acts.

I agree. His use of Christian metaphors doesn't help me much. BTW, I didn't notice this the first time I read the book. I certainly get a lot more out of the book by writing about it and discussing it,

Gassho,
John

[lindabeekeeper]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

Irina said:
a)can we actually live our every day lives without employing thoughts (is it feasible?)

This is a hard concept for me, too. Perhaps it means that instead of living without thoughts, we should strive to avoid having the thoughts take over and form our reality. And repentance (I agree this is an unfortunate translation) is when you acknowledge that your reality (the one you acted upon) is not the true reality and that your actions caused suffering.

One of the hardest things I do every day is acknowledge that some of my actions (hopefully not all) have caused suffering. I can only hope that acknowledging my delusion will help me get rid of it in future.

Gassho,

Linda

[Tony-KY]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

Linda wrote:

This is a hard concept for me, too. Perhaps it means that instead of living without thoughts, we should strive to avoid having the thoughts take over and form our reality. And repentance (I agree this is an unfortunate translation) is when you acknowledge that your reality (the one you acted upon) is not the true reality and that your actions caused suffering.

One of the hardest things I do every day is acknowledge that some of my actions (hopefully not all) have caused suffering. I can only hope that acknowledging my delusion will help me get rid of it in future

I idea that I have been coming to lately about zazen is that maybe the practice of sitting itself is like training the mind (or self?) to be more in tune with the I don't know (the universal self?). The effects of the practice are very subtle. Maybe in a way the sitting and other practices do have the effect of making us more mindful of the relationships of our thoughts and deeds upon others. It softens the barriers. Sorta like the way when I was a kid and got a new baseball glove, I had oil it and shape it for a while before I actually used it. Maybe being mindful is not so much of conscious effort? Sorry for the baseball example ops:.

Gassho, Tony

[CharlesC]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

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[John]

Re: 6/13 - Vow and Repentence p. 112

b) Why would we try to? Would it not be attainable to learn not to be "pulled around by the thoughts and emotions"?

To me thoughts are just useful tools that help us function in our day to day lives. But they aren't reality, they are an abstraction from reality and are okay as long as we treat them as that - like a map is useful but is not the actual terrain. Our zazen practice lets us see the unreal nature of thoughts and helps them lose their power over us,

Gassho,
John