6/6 - Zazen as Religion p. 109

[Eika]

Re: 6/6 - Zazen as Religion p. 109

John wrote:
I don't know how he/they reconcile Christianity with Zen.

I obviously cannot speak for them, but maybe they don't see a need to reconcile anything. Ideas fighting ideas is strange anyway . . . so maybe it is a lesson in itself—where there is no clinging to ideas, there are no ideas to get caught up in a bunch of thinking over.

Just a thought,

Bill

[Tb]

Re: 6/6 - Zazen as Religion p. 109

Hi.
(p.109)
"Our ideas about a mind to be trained or a body to be made healthy are expressions of the view of existence, which presupposes that there are things that can be accumulated."
There is nothing to attain because there is nothing that can attain.

(p. 110)
" Shakyamunis basic life attitude, which is to live out the life of the universal self"
"Take refuge in self, thake refuge in dharma, do not take refuge in anything else."
You are dharmas being experienced by myriad dharmas (or something, you know the qoute...) :wink:

May the force be with you
Tb

[John]

Re: 6/6 - Zazen as Religion p. 109

I obviously cannot speak for them, but maybe they don't see a need to reconcile anything. Ideas fighting ideas is strange anyway . . . so maybe it is a lesson in itself—where there is no clinging to ideas, there are no ideas to get caught up in a bunch of thinking over.

You mean - holding a kind of 'simultaneously true perspective' regarding other religions? Tolerance is good and maybe it's narrow to think there is only one path up the mountain. OTOH, if you have found a way that seems pretty good (like Zen) why would (in my case) I want to go back to the Evangelical Christianity I had become disillusioned with? I think it's better that I should practice one path deeply rather than take a shallow, dilettante, dabbling approach, trying a bit of this practice a bit of that as I feel like it. I see many others do this. But maybe, also, I tend to harbour the lingering thought that there must be one (and one only) 'right' path.

Re: 'clinging to ideas': I was reading a koan in the Shinji Shobogenzo this morning(no. 53) where Nishijima says:

"....Some Buddhists, aware that Buddhism is more than intellectual knowledge, have gone to the other extreme and said that study of the scriptures is completely useless, and so insist that only to practice Zazen is buddhism. Master Dogen criticised this attitude. Human beings have great intellectual capacities.We must use them in the study of Buddhism, in the study of reality...."

Some faiths like Catholicism instil rich traditions and rituals when people grow up with them. Perhaps Jesuit/Zen priests find those traditions hard to relinquish when they discover Buddhism and find a way to integrate or compartmentalise the teachings in their minds. Don't think I could do it though. Thanks for the interesting thought, Bill,

Gassho,
John

[Eika]

Re: 6/6 - Zazen as Religion p. 109

J

ohn wrote:
I think it's better that I should practice one path deeply rather than take a shallow, dilettante, dabbling approach, trying a bit of this practice a bit of that as I feel like it. I see many others do this. But maybe, also, I tend to harbour the lingering thought that there must be one (and one only) 'right' path.

I agree completely. I think there are probably many roads to the truth, but if one keeps switching roads one never gets to the destination (even though the destination is here already). The trick is to find one that works for your vehicle.

I, too, have little desire to go back to the tradition in which I was raised, however the more I practice, the better able I am to see that there is truly nothing wrong with that path, it just didn't suit my particular weaknesses/strengths. To each his/her own practice. There are roughly 500 million Buddhists worldwide, and I suppose that means there are 500 million Buddhist religions, each with its own flavor, some resembling others very closely, others very different. Maybe not all are effective, or even "healthful and helpful" as Jundo might say . . . but it is not my call. All I can do is practice as sincerely as I can the practice as I have been taught and have experienced as true.

Gassho,
Bill

[Bansho]

Re: 6/6 - Zazen as Religion p. 109

Hi Irina,

Ken,

He undeniably had an interest in understanding the parallels between Eastern and Western religions, but I think he new the differences very well and by no means was propagating any mixing of the two.

Yep, but I don't recollet anyone saying he was propogating Christianity. :roll: He might be understanding the connection between the two but I did not, especially not in the context he used it and I wrote about just that. Uchiyama made his argument from where he stood and I made mine. I might see it differently in 3 months. I moved to the next chapter. :lol:

Sorry for not being clearer on that - I was referring back to this statement which Charles had made:

This section of the book resonates with the positive side of my Christian upbringing, presenting a coming together of Christianity and Zen which works for me; but I wonder if for many Christians and Zen Buddhists it is an unsatisfactory hybrid of the two traditions.

I look at his references to the Bible and such more as an attempt to build a bridge, perhaps to make things more accessible to his Western audience who had a Christian background. We should also remember that this book was written over 30 years ago. Perhaps the fact that at least some people no longer feel the need for such bridges implies that Buddhism in the West is maturing?

It is possible that quite on the contraray we will need some clarification for the Western public what Buddhism is about since it seems many people got in their heads (including myself till recently and almost everyone I meet now) that Buddhism is about trying to get into Nirvana and not to feel anything, to become detached from this world. I think we will need all help from the East and especially our Western teachers to help us deal with this misunderstanding. :shock:

Yes, there are many misunderstandings about Buddhism in general floating about which urgently need clarification in the West, not to mention the needed clarification with respect to the differences between the various Buddhist traditions. No question about that. What I’m not so sure about is whether this should be approached using Christianity as a starting point to draw parallels. Maybe it's a sensible use of 'expedient means' for some, and that's great, but personally I can do without it. It's simply not my world.

Gassho
Ken

[Tb]

Re: 6/6 - Zazen as Religion p. 109

Hi Irina,

Ken,

He undeniably had an interest in understanding the parallels between Eastern and Western religions, but I think he new the differences very well and by no means was propagating any mixing of the two.

Yep, but I don't recollet anyone saying he was propogating Christianity. :roll: He might be understanding the connection between the two but I did not, especially not in the context he used it and I wrote about just that. Uchiyama made his argument from where he stood and I made mine. I might see it differently in 3 months. I moved to the next chapter. :lol:

Sorry for not being clearer on that - I was referring back to this statement which Charles had made:

This section of the book resonates with the positive side of my Christian upbringing, presenting a coming together of Christianity and Zen which works for me; but I wonder if for many Christians and Zen Buddhists it is an unsatisfactory hybrid of the two traditions.

I look at his references to the Bible and such more as an attempt to build a bridge, perhaps to make things more accessible to his Western audience who had a Christian background. We should also remember that this book was written over 30 years ago. Perhaps the fact that at least some people no longer feel the need for such bridges implies that Buddhism in the West is maturing?

It is possible that quite on the contraray we will need some clarification for the Western public what Buddhism is about since it seems many people got in their heads (including myself till recently and almost everyone I meet now) that Buddhism is about trying to get into Nirvana and not to feel anything, to become detached from this world. I think we will need all help from the East and especially our Western teachers to help us deal with this misunderstanding. :shock:

Yes, there are many misunderstandings about Buddhism in general floating about which urgently need clarification in the West, not to mention the needed clarification with respect to the differences between the various Buddhist traditions. No question about that. What I’m not so sure about is whether this should be approached using Christianity as a starting point to draw parallels. Maybe it's a sensible use of 'expedient means' for some, and that's great, but personally I can do without it. It's simply not my world.

Gassho
Ken

Hi.
Quite. but the best thing is to begin where "you" are and build from there, isnt it?
May the force be with yolu
Tb