LIVING by VOW: The Heart Sutra - pp 131 to 138

**Seishin** · 10-07-2017, 09:16 AM

Shugen

Looking forward to this chapter, as I'm hoping to gain a better insight/understanding of The Two Truths or at least Shohaku’s interpretation. Thank you.

SZIZTM

Mp · 10-07-2017, 02:15 PM

Wonderful, thank you Shugen. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

**Eishuu** · 10-08-2017, 04:09 PM

I noticed a few differences between the two translations which, for me, imply a slight difference of meaning. However, I don't understand the sutra enough to understand the implications of the different words or phrases chosen.

For example, I feel like there is some subtle difference between (Treeleaf) “all things are expressions of emptiness” and (Okumura) “all dharmas are marked by emptiness” - one seems to say that all forms are manifestations of emptiness, whereas the other seems to talk about emptiness as a quality or defining characteristic (I'm not entirely sure what 'marked' by emptiness means). Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I thought it was interesting.

Another difference was (O) “And the mind is no hindrance” and (TL) “With no hindrance of mind”, which also seem subtly different.

The difference that I felt had the most impact was (O) “the bodhisattva dwells in nirvana” and (TL) “Nirvana is already here”. I prefer the latter version as it always hits me in the gut when I hear it – it has more immediate emotional impact.

I initially found Okumura's inclusion of “and so forth” a bit awkward, but when I realised that he was referring to all of the twelve nidana links I found it really useful. I had forgotten that this was what those lines referred to – the whole process of dependent origination. It made me realise that the Heart Sutra is the condensation of many other teachings. I feel it's important for me to go back and study what it is referring to as there is so much in it.

In terms of the meaning of the Heart Sutra to my practice, I came across it in my early 20s when I started practising. I memorised it and remember feeling a lot of devotion reciting it. Eventually, I put it aside. It's only recently that I've started reciting it daily and studying it again. I've been reading Bernie Glassman's and Dogen's writing on it and started looking at the Japanese version. I have a sense that it's absolutely central to Zen practise. I feel fascinated by it and as though if I recite it enough something will trickle in to my subconscious and I'll understand it more. Sometimes I also feel very frustrated at my lack of understanding.

On Prajna, I feel it's really important, along with compassion. But I was wondering, we cultivate compassion through metta practise and the precepts. How then do we cultivate wisdom or Prajna? Is Zazen and studying the Dharma how we cultivate it? Is it something we can cultivate or can we only create the conditions for it?

The other question is, what is the difference between Prajna and emptiness? Are they different ways of talking about the same thing?

Sorry for all the questions...I generally find the Heart Sutra difficult to understand so it's great to have this chance to study it with all of you.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

**Tairin** · 10-08-2017, 06:21 PM

I read Living by Vows on my Kobo which doesn’t use the same page numbering. Just checking. Are we reading up to “THE SITUATION IN WHICH THE HEART SUTRA IS EXPOUNDED”?

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

**Shoka** · 10-08-2017, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by awarren

I read Living by Vows on my Kobo which doesn’t use the same page numbering. Just checking. Are we reading up to “THE SITUATION IN WHICH THE HEART SUTRA IS EXPOUNDED”?

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

Awarren,

Yes that is the right spot.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

**Kokuu** · 10-08-2017, 07:45 PM

The other question is, what is the difference between Prajna and emptiness?

Hi Lucy

In my understanding, prajna is wisdom. Part of wisdom, especially the perfection of wisdom (prajnaparamita) is understanding that all things are empty of inherent existence.

The perfection of wisdom/prajnaparamita sutras spend a lot of time talking about sunyata/emptiness - it is their central focus - to move us away from believing that even the Buddhist teachings such as the four noble truths are something concrete and inherently existing.

Red Pine's commentary is an interesting read in that it is suggested that the sutra arose in response to certain Buddhist traditions at the time who had taken to classifying different dharmas (elements of existence/experience) as the central part of their practice. The Heart Sutra was a way of cutting through all of that and reminding practitioners of the true nature of all things.

However, it is important to remember that I am a novice monk and tend to get more things wrong than right, so best check with Jundo.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

**Shugen** · 10-09-2017, 02:41 AM

Hello,

Kokuu expresses my understanding of things. But, remember, Shohaku did mention that there are at least 100 commentaries on the Heart Sutra so....

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

**Shoka** · 10-09-2017, 04:02 PM

Lucy,

Your comments on the translation and how they different is interesting to read. When I first started actively studying the Heart Sutra I read several different translations, Thich Nhat Hanh had just released a new translation, and it fascinated me. His translation varies greatly from Treeleafs, and others that I had heard. You can read it here if you want. (Also I believe there is a forum thread about it, if you want to search for that.)

At that time I started reading Red Pine's Heart Sutra, which is a hard but fascinating read at least for me. Red Pine really goes into detail, I mean he will write an entire page on one word! Starting with the Chinese and backtracking to the Sanskrit that it was probably translated from, and the double meanings of the word at the time. It is amazingly dense. But it did give me a depth of understanding, in reading this and all sutra, that we have to remember that we are reading things which have been translated and translated and translated. Like a copy of a copy of a copy.... it's never as crisp and clean as the original. Each translation picked up a little of the author in it, the word choice (or kanji choice), trying to explain something in a new language that probably doesn't equate one for one.

You study Japanese, so I'm sure you have started to see this. I know for me and Japanese there are just some things that can't translate well and can't be learned until you just feel it. I had a senior student tell me that about Japanese and I thought, wow he is hokey! But then it happened to me. For me the was ne and e at the end of sentences. Couldn't figure out for the life of me how to use them correctly, until one day it just clicked. I still can't translate it into English without it feeling strange, because there just isn't something that has the same feeling behind it. But I heading into the weeds.

For myself studying the words is important and understanding where they come from and why. But the "words" themselves have such a great depth of meaning that I know there is no way to put them down on paper in a form that is chant-able. A tenzo at a retreat I went to said it like this, "You feel it in your bones." And I the more I study, the more I believe her. Chanting the Heart Sutra from memory has made me start to feel it more and more in my bones. The depth is there in each word.

On the book, I'm really enjoying this commentary as it isn't as "into the words", but more gentle approach to the overall meaning and complexity of the Heart Sutra. I probably need to read this section again, as not much really jumped out at me. It was more like just a nice conversation.

But please as with everything, don't take my word for it, I really don't know much at all. Read, study and determine for yourself.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

PS. If you haven't heard Okumura speak, I would encourage anyone to listen to a talk by him. He has such a gentle manner that now as I read his words I can still hear his gentle speech, with little laughs and lots of smiling. It is really interesting how the book reads differently when you can start to hear it in the writes voice. (Or at least what I perceive as his voice.)

**Onkai** · 10-09-2017, 08:35 PM

Do you think there is any significant difference between the two? (Other than the rhythm)

I think the two translations said the same things, but reading it said in different ways made me reflect more on the meaning.

Does the Heart Sutra have a particular importance and/or meaning to your practice as it does to Shohaku’s?

The greatest significance of the Heart Sutra to me is that my understanding is limited. I glimpse something when I hear, read or chant it, but I don't fully understand it.

What are your thoughts on the emphasis on prajna (wisdom)?

Prajna is a reminder to understand things in context, not to be mindless or mechanical in anything I do.

Thank you all for the discussion, which I'm learning from.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday/LAH

**Shokai** · 10-10-2017, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Shoka:

ne and e at the end of sentences. Couldn't figure out for the life of me how to use them correctly, until one day it just clicked. I still can't translate it into English without it feeling strange,

Something like the Canadian sentence endder "eh!" or "ne" in Kebeqois; you gotta live it and use it or lose it

gassho,
Shokai
sat/LAH

**Jundo** · 10-10-2017, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Lucy

For example, I feel like there is some subtle difference between (Treeleaf) “all things are expressions of emptiness” and (Okumura) “all dharmas are marked by emptiness” - one seems to say that all forms are manifestations of emptiness, whereas the other seems to talk about emptiness as a quality or defining characteristic (I'm not entirely sure what 'marked' by emptiness means). Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I thought it was interesting.

Hi Lucy,

I think that here you might be splitting hairs, yes. But the hairs are empty too!

Perhaps we can tangle those hairs by saying that all is emptiness, is a manifestation of emptiness which is all its quality.

And don't forget that, so that we don't fall into the habit of thinking of "Emptiness" itself as some frozen thing, but rather as the flowing interflowing process that it is, we even remember that "Even 'Emptiness' is Empty!"

Another difference was (O) “And the mind is no hindrance” and (TL) “With no hindrance of mind”, which also seem subtly different.

All our English Heart Sutra versions are merely translations from the Japanese-Chinese which was (kinda) a translation or summary of passages from the longer "Perfection of Wisdom" Sutras (because scholars now generally agree that the Heart Sutra itself was first written in China, but based on some passages in longer Sutras in Sanskrit.(

But most important is to sit on the Zafu, beyond all the words and hairs, truly sitting as a "mind of no hindrance." Then, getting up from the Zafu and back to this world of problems and hindrances, perhaps this "mind of no hindrance" can remain in the heart. In that way, one can live a bit that the other shore of "nirvana is here" and we "bodhisattvas dwell" in it, right here in this mess of Samsara.

On Prajna, I feel it's really important, along with compassion. But I was wondering, we cultivate compassion through metta practise and the precepts. How then do we cultivate wisdom or Prajna? Is Zazen and studying the Dharma how we cultivate it? Is it something we can cultivate or can we only create the conditions for it?

Everything about our Practice, and all we undertake in this Sangha including reading about the Heart Sutra, is how we seek to cultivate Wisdom and Compassion. One thing to recall, though, is that Mahayana "Compassion" is a little more than the usual English meaning of "compassion." Mahayana "Compassion" is to help all the suffering sentient beings realize Emptiness, that in fact there are no "sentient beings" to "suffer" (although, of course, there are).

The other question is, what is the difference between Prajna and emptiness? Are they different ways of talking about the same thing?

I would say that Prajna (Wisdom) is a deep understanding of "Emptiness" and of Compassion, and some insight into how to bring that understanding to life here in Samsara. Again, defining "Prajna" in words is one thing, but actually living "Prajna" is our Practice.

Shoka said ...

But it did give me a depth of understanding, in reading this and all sutra, that we have to remember that we are reading things which have been translated and translated and translated. Like a copy of a copy of a copy.... it's never as crisp and clean as the original. Each translation picked up a little of the author in it, the word choice (or kanji choice), trying to explain something in a new language that probably doesn't equate one for one.

I am not sure that it is quite like that. The Heart Sutra is more organic, growing generation by day, a garden which blooms anew generation by generation. There is always the same ground of Emptiness, the soil, yet the garden is what it is now in the hands of each gardener, and I don't believe that finding one single "original" is the point. The interpretation did change in subtle ways even over the centuries in China and Japan. It is helpful to learn the intended meaning as Shohaku is explaining, yet how we bring that into life is the key. That is like studying in books a bit about why roses are not tulips. Some ideas about flowers did change a bit through the centuries. Roses are roses, but it is the scent and not the name, and in each of our gardening hands the garden comes to life in new ways.

As Shoka said, more than the words, one comes to "feel it in ones bones" and then get up to move those bones.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

**Jishin** · 10-10-2017, 10:56 AM

LIVING by VOW: The Heart Sutra - pp 131 to 138

Hi,

All sutras are expressions of emptiness...

No eyes, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind to see, hear, smell, taste, touch or object of mind to perceive sutras...

All the students of Buddha got attached to his teachings. Then the Heart Sutra came along to say “cut it out! Attachment to teachings leads to suffering!”. So the students thought that makes sense and worshiped the supreme wisdom, the Heart Sutra. But some students perceived the Heart Sutra to be empty and were free of suffering.

Put down the Hear Sutra and go do something worthwhile.

My worthless 2 cents

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Shinshou** · 10-10-2017, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Shugen

Hello all,

Does the Heart Sutra have a particular importance and/or meaning to your practice as it does to Shohaku’s?

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH

Well, honestly, it didn't until I read this chapter. I don't think I had a clear context to apply the Heart Sutra. But when Okumura says that the Heart Sutra is describing our zazen, it changed the whole thing for me.

Dan
Sat today

**Kokuu** · 10-10-2017, 09:48 PM

All the students of Buddha got attached to his teachings. Then the Heart Sutra came along to say “cut it out! Attachment to teachings leads to suffering!”. So the students thought that makes sense and worshiped the supreme wisdom, the Heart Sutra. But some students perceived the Heart Sutra to be empty and were free of suffering.

Wise words, Jishin. Although it contains much wisdom, The Heart Sutra is not exempt from its own message and should not be clung to.

At least, that is my understanding.

Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

LIVING by VOW: The Heart Sutra - pp 131 to 138

LIVING by VOW: The Heart Sutra - pp 131 to 138

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment