LIVING by VOW: Author's Preface & Introduction - PP IX to 11

[Jundo]

Dear All,

We will begin reflections on Shohaku Okumura Roshi's LIVING BY VOW: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts ...

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow

This week, we look at the Author's Preface and the Introduction only.

Of course, you can discuss anything about the book in this thread (or stay silent). Please ask a question if there is something unclear, and I will do my best to find an answer. Here, I just suggest a few possible topics and observations:

Okumura Roshi, like many of us, is walking the fine line between preserving and keeping relevant certain traditions and practices, while also recognizing the conclusion of scholars on the realities of Buddhist history, the viewpoints of modern science and the like. Please note, for example, the number of times he will allude to the fact that scholars may doubt whether a particular mythical event actually happened, whether words once believed to be those of the historical Buddha were actually created much later, whether a certain legendary figure actually lived or is primarily a fiction. While usually repeating and not challenging such viewpoints by the scholars, Okumura will nonethless find some continued relevance in the old legends, myths etc.

Do you believe that the attitude of the Bodhisattva is vital to Zen Practice, and must be focused on helping others before (or together with) ourself? Do you feel like a Bodhisattva yourself according to the definitions given?

The Introduction briefly introduces all the many Chants that Okumura will be looking at more closely later in the book, and seeks to make the point that "Vow" is at the center of all of them. Do you get that?

What do you think about his comment, "Such a reflection and realization of one's own incompleteness is repentance" ?

Toward the end of the Introduction, there is a long passage from Master Dogen's Shobogenzo-Gyoji about "continuous practice" (which is also known as "Practice-Enlightenment"). Is his meaning clear to you, and any impressions?

Anyway, this is just the Introduction, and we will get into the heart of the book next time.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Wonderful, thank you Jundo. Very much looking forward to this, as this is a wonderful book. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Banto]

From the intro: “Ordinary people are those who live being pulled by their karma (gosshō no bonpu); bodhisattvas are those who live led by their vows (ganshō no bosatsu).”

Could it be that we are both?

Loved the introduction, this is going to be a great study.
Gassho
SatToday

[M.C. Easton]

Dear All,

We will begin reflections on Shohaku Okumura Roshi's LIVING BY VOW: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts

What do you think about his comment, "Such a reflection and realization of one's own incompleteness is repentance" ?

Toward the end of the Introduction, there is a long passage from Master Dogen's Shobogenzo-Gyoji about "continuous practice" (which is also known as "Practice-Enlightenment"). Is his meaning clear to you, and any impressions?

Anyway, this is just the Introduction, and we will get into the heart of the book next time.

Gassho, J

SatToday

I loved the story of the king who realized he could not control his own anger. I do think this "realization of one's own incompleteness"--especially in the context of the bodhisattva's "endless" vows--can become repentance. But I think only if we take that realization and turn it into "the energy to study and practice diligently" (p. 7). I discover my own shortcomings daily, but that alone can lead to complacency or frustration very easily. There must be some direction for that realization to flow toward for it to become repentance. I think, anyway. ;-)

One question I do have is regarding this idea of lying down in the mud in order to be trampled on as a way of taking refuge in the Triple Treasure and vowing to become a buddha (p. 5). I felt some discomfort with this extreme form of submission and self-sacrifice. As a woman who spent 20 years in Mormonism, I experienced a lot of commands from religious leaders and my father to "submit" and "be obedient" and get a man to "lead" me. Self-sacrifice and self-abnegation were requisites for being a good Mormon woman in the wards where I grew up. So of course this image dredged up my past, and I balked at it. I think it is one thing to be all your life set over others and then decide to crawl on your hands and knees to prostrate yourself in the mud--but something else entirely if you have been told for decades that the mud is just where you belong. I'm sure all my baggage caused me to completely miss the point. Can someone help me see more clearly the message behind this story about lying down in the mud to be stepped on?

Thank you!
Gassho,
Melanie
SatToday

[Jakuden]

I loved the story of the king who realized he could not control his own anger. I do think this "realization of one's own incompleteness"--especially in the context of the bodhisattva's "endless" vows--can become repentance. But I think only if we take that realization and turn it into "the energy to study and practice diligently" (p. 7). I discover my own shortcomings daily, but that alone can lead to complacency or frustration very easily. There must be some direction for that realization to flow toward for it to become repentance. I think, anyway. ;-)

One question I do have is regarding this idea of lying down in the mud in order to be trampled on as a way of taking refuge in the Triple Treasure and vowing to become a buddha (p. 5). I felt some discomfort with this extreme form of submission and self-sacrifice. As a woman who spent 20 years in Mormonism, I experienced a lot of commands from religious leaders and my father to "submit" and "be obedient" and get a man to "lead" me. Self-sacrifice and self-abnegation were requisites for being a good Mormon woman in the wards where I grew up. So of course this image dredged up my past, and I balked at it. I think it is one thing to be all your life set over others and then decide to crawl on your hands and knees to prostrate yourself in the mud--but something else entirely if you have been told for decades that the mud is just where you belong. I'm sure all my baggage caused me to completely miss the point. Can someone help me see more clearly the message behind this story about lying down in the mud to be stepped on?

Thank you!
Gassho,
Melanie
SatToday

Hi Melanie,
Not sure I have the right answer to this, but my impression was that the point was that Sumedha had an option to use supernatural powers to take a "short cut," but instead decided to emulate the Buddha's life of service to others. Lying in the mud was symbolic of his decision to be a Bodhisattva, serving all other beings instead of himself. Most of us would probably justify taking the short cut, at least I know I probably would, lol. But unfortunately there don't seem to be any shortcuts to being a bodhisattva, it involves getting pretty intimately involved with the mud. 🤷*♀️

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Jundo]

Hi Melanie,
Not sure I have the right answer to this, but my impression was that the point was that Sumedha had an option to use supernatural powers to take a "short cut," but instead decided to emulate the Buddha's life of service to others. Lying in the mud was symbolic of his decision to be a Bodhisattva, serving all other beings instead of himself. Most of us would probably justify taking the short cut, at least I know I probably would, lol. But unfortunately there don't seem to be any shortcuts to being a bodhisattva, it involves getting pretty intimately involved with the mud. ��*♀️

Yes. I will also add that, when we Prostrate on the ground, it is a great exercise in humility and yielding. However, as we "raise up the Buddha's feet", one can also see that the whole world is raising us! (It depends how one looks at things, much like "Is Australia 'down under', or is America 'down' and Australia 'Up Over'? ) In any case, all supports and raises all, and it all balances out!

It is also just an example of "self-sacrifice," like when I offer my coat to my wife on a cold night, or my umbrella to a senior citizen in the rain. I am left cold and wet, but somehow warm in spirit.

In the West, many folks have trouble with bowing. In Asia, not so much ...



Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyonin]

Thank you Jundo!

I have the book and I'm ready to roll

Gassho,

Kyonin
SatToday

[Kaishin]

From the intro: “Ordinary people are those who live being pulled by their karma (gosshō no bonpu); bodhisattvas are those who live led by their vows (ganshō no bosatsu).”

Could it be that we are both?

Loved the introduction, this is going to be a great study.
Gassho
SatToday

related: if anyone wants to support Okumura's zendo, you can buy a "Live by Vow, not by Karma" shirt from them

https://www.zazzle.com/sanshin_zen

p.s. he is also currently working on a book about Dogen's waka poetry

[Meian]

Early in the passage there is a quote from Roshi that struck me. "In zazen many things come up: thoughts, emotions, sometimes anger and hatred. But all you have to do is take care of zazen in eternal possibility. It's completely beyond good and bad, right or wrong, so put aside all kinds of imagination fabricated by your consciousness. Don't attach to thoughts and emotions, just let them return to emptiness. Just be present there and swim in buddha-nature" (xii-xiii)

This struck me because this is what I find liberating - and daunting - about Buddhism. It liberates me from constrictions of dogmatic thinking and specific dualities, yet that is a paradoxical responsibility because I can no longer use dogma or contrived boundaries as an excuse not to do something, or to do something. In a way, with liberation comes greater accountability to all sentient beings, and the vows we choose to take to help all who suffer (all sentient beings).

That's my take on it. Kind of like being in the mud also

Bowing doesn't bother me - I forget to, but to me it's a gesture of respect and gratitude, I've no issues with it. But being American - we are a bit weird about this stuff, yes

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

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[Jakuden]

Another thought about Melanie's question... there is certainly a difference between submitting to the will of other beings against one's will and under threat, versus sacrificing voluntarily. All women, Mormon or otherwise, have likely felt to some degree that their body and mind is subject to the will of others... I was certainly informed, and in so many words, that this was the case when I was a child. There has to be liberation from the feeling of being "owned" first before one can awaken to the true lack of separation from others. Life experiences have created that sense of separation for us by way of cultural attitudes.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Shoka]

I'm pretty excited about this book. I have read a portion of it, but didn't finish it. One of the things that really strikes me in the introduction is the depth of the vow as it is described. There is a quote:

When we clearly see this reality; that we and other things exist together without fixed independent entities, our practice is strengthened. We understand that to live by vow is not to accept a particular fixed doctrine but is a natural expression of our life force.

I really enjoy the depth that Okumura brings to the vows, even in the short introduction.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[Entai]

I think the Bodhisattva attitude is essential to practice. Otherwise I don't really see the point. It would be like sitting quietly in zazen while someone across the room is sobbing in pain. Do I just hear it, let it go and continue sitting? I certainly hope I wouldn't. That's when my practice leaves the cushion and continues as benefiting others if possible.

The meal verse I often use is:

I receive this food with gratitude to all beings.
May it sustain my life so that I may serve others.

Of course we don't always know if our actions are beneficial. Sometimes not helping is more helpful. I also don't think it's a good idea to "always" put others first. It's just as important to take care of yourself, otherwise you may be unable to take care of others. For example, lying down in the mud so that someone can get across may be noble, but if nobody helps you back up, what do they do when they reach the next mud puddle?

My 2 cents (doesn't get you much these days, does it?)

Gassho,
Entai
#SatToday

[Jakuden]

Sometimes not helping is more helpful. I also don't think it's a good idea to "always" put others first. It's just as important to take care of yourself, otherwise you may be unable to take care of others. For example, lying down in the mud so that someone can get across may be noble, but if nobody helps you back up, what do they do when they reach the next mud puddle?

[emoji120]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Meian]

I had another thought about being in the mud, much earlier today. Things got busy.

Years ago, I had a spiritual director. I've always had very vivid, intense dreams, and I had shared some with her, one of which involved running barefoot through mud in a forest. She explained to me some of the symbolism and metaphor involved in dream imagery which had come to mind with this passage this week.

I thought of gestation, darkness, seed growth, and meditation. How we are unable to help others unless we go first go within, into the emptiness and darkness within ourselves (gestation, the void), and allow ourselves to grow and exist, before we can help others from that gestation period. Then we reach out and can be present as we are from the fertile soil of our lives.

Maybe i am seeing too much in it, but it's an understanding i gained years ago in direction, it lay dormant for many years. She's been on my mind a bit recently, and this passage brought her teaching about rich soil back. I'm grateful for that ♡ It's a perspective, not necessarily a Buddhist one.

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

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[JasonG]

A great start to this book. What jumped out for me was the following:

"We understand that to live by vow is not to accept a particular fixed doctrine but is a natural expression of our life force."

I tend to get stuck and resist when I hear about vows and the implications to following any tradition or ritual and commitment as a means to "being awake". I recall Jundo telling me once a while back that instead of commitment to practice, think of it more as being sincere about your practice.

I think "living by vow" is suggesting something similar. Looking forward to delving deeper!

Gassho
Jason

sat today