BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 24

[Jigetsu]

Sadly, this on utterly lost me. I read it several times. Maybe if I turn it upside down?

[galen]

Sadly, this on utterly lost me. I read it several times. Maybe if I turn it upside down?

Jigetsu... seemingly, being lost can be a good thing. While there are those who feel they may be getting It, like myself, who get caught up in 'thinking' such, it can only entangle the small mind of my ego, and that is what could be called sad.

Hang in there, your honestly reaching out here could open many enlightenment's. For me it seems to help to not be afraid to speak out on these threads, having no fear of looking or sounding foolish. I embrace being looked at like the fool, I have been many times over. It can be very rewarding with the feed back it draws back to you, me, us. Seemingly, just bring your 'heart of question' like here, it would be foolish not to. You seem to be on your Way, good luck and `sit on it much as you can!


Gassho

[santosh]

Have you ever tasted something of Dogen's existential way of living and dying: when life comes live, when death comes die, do not cling to one or push away the other?

An experience I'd like to share: Some times I can make too big a deal of choices at hand. Especially when I can tell that there is just one choice to be made. I might be aware (or might not completely be aware) of which choice that would be.

Instead tempted by the fantasy of the more unreal choice, I begin to weigh out the pros and cons and tie myself further to what is not. As Suzuki Roshi says in ZM,BM - the mind wanders on to create another time and space aside from what is real. Then we make a choice finally, the other one quietly fades away. In hindsight, some of these so-called 'difficult' choices feel obvious. Yes, some times there is regret too ('Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill' ).

I have experienced death only indirectly. I can only imagine, but if I were frail, on my back, dying, there will be moments where a lot of thoughts of this and that will pop up in my head, you know 'I wish I had done so and so ...'. What after those thoughts, what after the panic? Is there a line when dying begins?

The line that stood out - “Today in the hall there are many who have lost their lives.”

Gassho,
Santosh.

[galen]

In trying to catch up to the rest of this koan by reading the appr. verse, Wick, Jundo's opening and the rest of the comments on this thread, I had trouble getting past the verse. Attempting to dig down into stuckness there, I am tempted to play the fool once again. Its seems to say, to point to, our flashes of momentary enlightenment bursting like bolts of lightening. Moments of big Mindedness, and then in those fleeting seconds fall back to small mindedness, again stuck in the chaos of our normal world. Does is not feel like Its always with us, just out of reach, but right 'there' and if only we could grab It and be forever saved !? "Among brilliant lightening flashes see the change?" "When its mine I can let go or call back. (subjective)" For most of us there isn't really a choice there, at least for now, it seems. "When its with him he grabs and releases (objective)." And then: "Whats that??" "Right now can you give it to someone?" Thats seems to be the key here... hell no, how can you give something you can yet fully attain, but can only grasp at in fleeting moments. How can you/we bring It to all sentinent (sp) beings if we have little to bring? This seems to be the direction Zen wants to take us as we stumble and bumble along in `life, such as it is in the `world. The more we seemingly can get the flashes and glimpses and have some realization that they are real and true and not the rest of our fantasies, the closer and closer we get to Home. But one of the biggest obstacles seems to be when we get some attainment or realization of what Is, we get somewhat puffed up and our little minded ego throws us back again. The challenge is not for the meek, but for those who seemingly can take the risk and throwing fear out the window, because we have to throw out most of the shit we think is life. Be a fool and go for It!!


Gassho

[Jundo]

... Moments of big Mindedness, and then in those fleeting seconds fall back to small mindedness, again stuck in the chaos of our normal world. Does is not feel like Its always with us, just out of reach, but right 'there' and if only we could grab It and be forever saved !? ... the closer and closer we get to Home. ... Be a fool and go for It!!


Gassho

Why such dualistic thinking? "Moments of Big Mindedness, and then falling back" ... Falling back TO WHERE? Our chaotic normal world? Then that "Big Mind" was simply not "Big Mind Enough" if it fails to embody this so-called "chaotic normal world" which still seems in need of escape.

Just out of reach? The closer and closer to get? Who puts it "there"? What "just out of reach" golden ring are you grabbing for on this merry-go-round? Don't be misguided. The merry-go-round you seek to leap off is a twirling Enso all along, is the golden ring. Yee-hah!

Gassho, Jundo

[Jeff]

Did you ever experience a moment of the spark of life (such as a child's birth) or brink of death, yet taste something in the instant beyond such mental categories?

About 5 years ago I had an allergic reaction to Amoxicillin, something that I had taken many times prior. I had stopped by the doctor’s office before work to get something for my ongoing flu. I took the medication as I left and began losing my breath and vision as I drove down the road. Somehow I drove myself to the emergency room of the nearest hospital and stumbled in. I made it to the check-in of the ER and the voice from behind the glass told me to sign the sign-in sheet and go to the waiting area. I then preceded to collapse to the ground.

I recall being highly stressed the entire time and filled with the expectation that someone would save me. For a brief instance before passing out I gave up on that expectation and experienced only what I can describe as a state of calm. Is that the taste of something beyond mental categories? I don’t know, but that is what comes to mind.

Have you ever tasted something of Dogen's existential way of living and dying: when life comes live, when death comes die, do not cling to one or push away the other?

I carry attachment and delusion in much of my moment-to-moment life. The attachment to life itself creates the greatest illusion of all, the illusion of permanence. I try to just sit and leave the illusion behind, but I don’t know that I have done that if even for a moment. I did experience a shower for the first time the other week. I was standing in the shower and realized I was enjoying the shower without my normal chattering mind creating illusions…I was doing nothing but taking a shower. Then my mind recognized the moment and I lost my shower. Maybe foolishly I feel a connection between this question of not clinging or pushing away life and death, and taking a shower. It feels like a step towards the existential way of living and dying…if I don’t create an attachment to the experience

Gassho,

Jeff

[galen]

Why such dualistic thinking? "Moments of Big Mindedness, and then falling back" ... Falling back TO WHERE? Our chaotic normal world? Then that "Big Mind" was simply not "Big Mind Enough" if it fails to embody this so-called "chaotic normal world" which still seems in need of escape.

Just out of reach? The closer and closer to get? Who puts it "there"? What "just out of reach" golden ring are you grabbing for on this merry-go-round? Don't be misguided. The merry-go-round you seek to leap off is a twirling Enso all along, is the golden ring. Yee-hah!

Gassho, Jundo

Because I fall back, I am human. Falling back to my normal small mindedness, just like yourself. If I didn't or wasn't, I wouldn't need this web site. Of course it was not big enough and that was my insinuation here. I am grabbing the same so-called golden merry-go-round that you are on now, with your circling questions. Are you being fooled here yeeeeeeehaaaaaaa!!??

One would have to believe this is some priestly sarcasm, for any hope.



Gassho

[Kaishin]

I cannot recall any such experiences. Perhaps an uneventful life, or my mind is dull to memory. I have a good "fact" memory but a very poor "experience" memory. I just keep going.
Gassho, Kaishin

[Shugen]

Questions: Did you ever experience a moment of the spark of life (such as a child's birth) or brink of death, yet taste something in the instant beyond such mental categories?

Have you ever tasted something of Dogen's existential way of living and dying:[I] when life comes live, when death comes die, do not cling to one or push away the other?

Can I be open to just what's here in front of me? Can I accept it and not want it to be other? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.


Shugen

[Jundo]

Because I fall back, I am human. Falling back to my normal small mindedness, just like yourself. If I didn't or wasn't, I wouldn't need this web site. Of course it was not big enough and that was my insinuation here. I am grabbing the same so-called golden merry-go-round that you are on now, with your circling questions. Are you being fooled here yeeeeeeehaaaaaaa!!??

One would have to believe this is some priestly sarcasm, for any hope.



Gassho

You will always be human (in this life anyway), so you will always fall back. To one degree or another, of course, because we do get better at this Practice with time. You will always fall back until you become a Perfect Golden Buddha anyway.

But please see that there is no place to fall back to. The circling merry-go-round, the falling down and standing back up again is all practice-enlightenment, is all Buddha. Buddha is the merry-go-round, the standing and falling down again ... not some timeless unmoving state (not in this life anyway) where you stand up and never fall down again, or leap completely off the roundabout. It is not (in our neck of the Buddhist woods anyway), some final achievement in which you "got it" and that's that ... the ride is done.

Of course, while riding, falling up and down, we can simultaneously know that timeless, unmoving state with no up and down. At once. It is an ultimate achievement, but never final (in this life anyway).

Please be willing to hear. This is the ticket we carnies sell in this carnival.

Gassho, Jundo

[galen]

Thank you Jundo, I hear you loud and clear. It seems my words of 'falling back', are as relative and to the same degree as 'falling down and getting back up'. It seems falling back (they are both falling somewhere to be saved once again, and again and again) is, as you say, practice-enlightenment, which is also my intent. Seemingly, if there is no place to fall back to, as you say, then it would seem to fit the same falling down in what is considered relative, there would be no place to fall down to. May it not just be word games, one no more meaningful then the other. Help me, I do not see a difference here, my intended post seems to have the same result, of always getting back up (with big Mind, in as much as possible in each of our own personal awareness at this point in `time), that is the practice 24/7.


Gassho

[Jakudo]

"Questions: Did you ever experience a moment of the spark of life (such as a child's birth) or brink of death, yet taste something in the instant beyond such mental categories?

Have you ever tasted something of Dogen's existential way of living and dying: when life comes live, when death comes die, do not cling to one or push away the other?"

The only experiance that would come close would be a few years back when I fell from our roof onto the concrete driveway. While falling there was no fear, only the acknowledgement of it happening, When I landed (feet first) there wasent any fear but again, acknowledgement that the snap I heard was my legs. As I rolled onto my back and lifted my legs to see them dangling below my knees...still no fear, all pretty surreal really. I'm not implying it did not have a psychological effect on me, it certainly did, I've had panic attacks reliving that moment on and off since it happened as well as some physical limitations. I think I'm getting off topic...
Gassho, Jakudo Hinton.

[Shokai]

wow, when I was akid a friend and Iused to jumped off the garage roof for kicks but, much younger, flexibl, etc Wouldn't want to experience it as an accident thol

[Shokai]

Fall down seven, get up eight

[Daitetsu]

Questions: Did you ever experience a moment of the spark of life (such as a child's birth) or brink of death, yet taste something in the instant beyond such mental categories?

Have you ever tasted something of Dogen's existential way of living and dying: when life comes live, when death comes die, do not cling to one or push away the other?

The moment my child was born was beyond any description for me. It was somehow timeless. No word can describe this moment.

Another moment was an incident involving electricity and a screwdriver... Luckily nothing happened - I was lucky. Strange thing is: I was not even scared or anything. I just witnessed everything almost impartially. Just a few moments later I realized how lucky I was. A person standing a few feet away was really a bit upset. And I marked that day on my calendar as a reminder of how fleeting life can be.