BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 18

[Jundo]

A lot of words about MU. Best to avoid too much mental wheel spinning about MU.

MU is not thinking about is or is not, yes or no ... including is or is not, yes or no of MU.

Please resolve the question of MU not by "yes" ... not by "no" ... but by "MU!"

[galen]

A lot of words about MU. Best to avoid too much mental wheel spinning about MU.

MU is not thinking about is or is not, yes or no ... including is or is not, yes or no of MU.

Please resolve the question of MU not by "yes" ... not by "no" ... but by "MU!"

MU

Thanks, Jundo.


Gassho

[Rich]

When you don't know what to do, just do MU.

[Risho]

Wow I'm confused. lol

Gassho,

Risho

[Jundo]

I sometimes say that discussing MU is like two overly intelligent fish trying to debate, describe and compare their experiences of the swirling ocean.

One can try to describe wetness or saltiness or the force of currents philosophically, poetically, analytically, or as a mathematical formula, but nothing really captures the whole, vibrant, storming-calm, boundless ocean. One cannot even describe fully the taste of brine on one's own tongue. The ocean is real as real can be, though never contained only in words. As every drop holds the whole, and the whole is a single drop ... yet sometimes we miss its buoyancy even while basking (and sometimes drowning) in it!

Nothing quite describes the living ocean but the ocean. So, just jump in, swim swim swim!

In fact, fish do not and cannot jump into or out of this ocean ... and it is never entered or left ...

Fish --are-- the ocean, all is ocean, and the ocean is alive as every fish. A sea without sea-life would be cold and dead. Swim swim swim, taste the salt.




Something like that.




So, when I see fish discussing the properties of the ocean a little too much, a bucket of cold salty water must be thrown over their heads! (How does one throw a bucket of sea water over fish already swimming in the sea?)

... fish-sea swimming round and round and round ...

[Omoi Otoshi]

It's a very good analogy!

Gassho,
Pontus

[galen]

Wow I'm confused. lol

Gassho,

Risho

Risho.... From my limited and sometimes foolish perspective (hello my friend Pontus ), from just re-reading a dozen pages or so from '3 pillars of Zen' on a commentary by Yasutoni, pages 82 to 94, on just the koan Mu, Mu is considered the top `dog of koans to break through to enlightenment threw the process of kensho. It can be done in a week of sesshins in a monastery, or years for some. Its that sudden burst of light to instantaneous enlightenment, at least the first levels of such(ness).

Mu is used as a barrier, much like the gateless-gate, where here in relativity only a barrier exists (our minds, our delusional egoic small self), where in `reality no barrier exists. Its breaking down the mental game of delusion, where the masters had to use this method for the teachings for attainment (and koans in general), against their Zen wills of conceptualizing and intellectualizing, the `great paradox. It seems to point to (again in my limited perspective) the concept that we all have Buddha nature intrinsically (like the delusional karmic dog), but to fully embody our `true nature and become totally immersed into full Buddha-hood is the goal(less)-goal. One can approach this through this harsher more direct method of attainment of the Rinzai sect, or through the more methodical Soto sect practiced here at Treeleaf.

I would post a link or paste the pages here, but could not easily find a download, lacking the great talent of Jundo.


Gassho

[Daitetsu]

Hi galen,

I think this should be the part you talked about:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/75319384/Philiph-Kapleau-The-Three-Pillars-of-Zen-Practice-Entlightenment#page=83

Gassho,

Timo

[Jundo]

Hi Galen,

Yasutani's way is not how we Practice here, or how we approach ... MU ...

... which cannot be approached or avoided.

Gassho, J

[Daitetsu]

Yasutani's way is not how we Practice here, or how we approach ... MU ...

... which cannot be approached or avoided.

Yes, I wanted to add this as well. The Rinzai approach is different - and should not be undertaken alone and without an experienced master.
It is kind of a "brute force method" (don't know how to describe it better)...
Still I found "Three Pillars of Zen" very interesting, I must admit.

Gassho,

Timo

[galen]

Hi Galen,

Yasutani's way is not how we Practice here, or how we approach ... MU ...

... which cannot be approached or avoided.

Gassho, J

Thank you Jundo,

I think by now we all understand that fear. Would not want one of those new students getting the wrong idea and go astray. With that being said, it is a tremendous book, and I have read many depth books the past 28 years, sometimes over and over with my little mind. If anything, the historical contrast and insight this books shows, only made me more comfortable being here. For the most part, we are adults and its our choice to be adulterated in concepts of our choice. Fear is the biggy with the ego, defending and sheltering, that only worrying brings, seemingly an un-Zen feature of the small self.


Gassho

[galen]

Hi galen,

I think this should be the part you talked about:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/75319384/Philiph-Kapleau-The-Three-Pillars-of-Zen-Practice-Entlightenment#page=83

Gassho,

Timo

Thank you Timo.



Gassho

[Jundo]

With that being said, it is a tremendous book

Hi Galen,

I think that, these days, many in the Zen world would consider it a book that did tremendous harm in causing tremendous misunderstandings about Zen Practice. Below is what I write when the topic arises.

On the other hand, to each there own ... and different medicines for what ails different patients. If someone finds something in that book or way of Practice helpful, that is very good for them. However, it is not as we practice here in this corner of the Zen woods.

-------------------------

Zen and all Buddhism come in so many flavors ... All ultimately the same at heart perhaps, but very different in viewpoints and approach. So, the person new to Buddhism and Zen is left very confused by all the different books claiming to be a "Guide to Zen" or "Introduction to Buddhism" recommending often very very different things! Even "Soto" and "Shikantaza" folks can be quite varied in approach among themselves ... everyone like a cook with her own personal recipe for chicken soup!

...

["Three Pillars of Zen"] had great influence because it was so early (one of the few books on the subject 50 years ago), but it presented a view on Zen Practice and 'Kensho' that is not usual even in Japan (not even in Rinzai Zen, in my understanding) and represents a group ... named "Sanbokyodan" ... that is tiny is Japan but has had a HUGE and disproportionate influence in the West through derived groups such as the White Plum and Diamond Sangha! Read more here.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/sanbokyodan%20zen.pdf

...

The book presents a view of "Kensho" and "Enlightenment" that was very much present in corners of the Zen world at one time, especially in the west. I was recently reading a good book on the subject, a book about the culture surrounding "The Three Pillars of Zen" which presented to many such an extreme, misleading "Kensho or Bust" image of Zen practice. Here is a review of that book, called "Zen Teaching, Zen Practice: Philip Kapleau and The Three Pillars of Zen" edited by Kenneth Kraft, a long time student of Kapleau Roshi ...

Kraft points out that Kapleau’s book is “in large measure a book about kensho” (p.14) which in itself is problematic as for many, including some of the authors of the essays, this led to “inflated expectations… [and] [t]he discrepancy between anticipatory visions of enlightenment and actual experiences of insight”. (p.15) This disjuncture between what Kapleau wrote and the actual experiences of Zen students has led to some criticisms of The Three Pillars of Zen as a book that gives an unrealistic picture of what to expect from zazen. ...

While this emphasis on and almost inevitability of kensho is, I think, a fair criticism of The Three Pillars of Zen, there is little doubt that Kapleau’s book brought many people to the study and practice of Zen Buddhism and for that we should be grateful. It is also necessary that we understand where and how Kapleau learned his Zen practice to better understand why he wrote and taught the way he did.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReviews/ZenteachingZenpractice.htm

You can also read a bit more on Kapleau and Yasutani Roshis' approach here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6514-SPECIAL-READING-ONCE-BORN-TWICE-BORN-ZEN-%28Part-1%29

Gassho, J

[Risho]

My comment about being confused was just me being a smart*** with you and Pontus talking about your ideas of God. hahaah When I personally think of God or any concepts that can be larger than life, I easily become confused. It's like thinking about our position in the universe, here on Earth. If you start thinking from a larger perspective of the Universe.. what if there were an edge to the univers? Is that possible, then what would be outside of it... well anything outside of it would have to be the universe, I guess depending on your view of what the Universe means.

This whole thing can just get very confusing... there's no way to know (yet), but it's still fun to speculate. It's like Mu. No matter if someone gave you an answer to this koan and explained it to you, they might as well be giving you the answer to your life. It doesn't exist. It's life, you live it. We have to find it ourself, we have to live our lives for ourselves. To the best of our ability, meaning in keeping with the precepts, our values.. yadda yadda yadda. Sometimes the answer is clearly yes or no. But most of the time, you have to go beyond that and just do something the best way you know how.

In any case, when I first started practicing I read Three Pillars. I found some of it good, but I personally could not relate to breaking down in zazen or sweating intensely during Shikantaza. I just don't relate to that, and I don't believe that if you aren't sweating during Shikantaza you aren't doing it right. I don't know how to do it right. Not to be coy, but if I worry about how I'm doing something while I'm doing it, I'm not fully doing it. I'm not judging those practitioners or teachers in that book. Perhaps they were in a psychological position the resulted in that, in breaking down for some reason. I've cried during zazen when my dog died. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a robot. I agree with Jundo though. I think pushing for any sort of "enlightenment experience" is sort of crazy. Pushing for what?

In my limited life experience so far, anytime an urgent need to get something or get somewhere occurs, the best thing to do is to ask why. Of course realization is urgent, but not in the sense that I have to drop everything now to get "it". If I have to give up my family and friends to get something called "enlightenment", that is not real. This practice is about being immersed in our lives now as they are (while we still try to change them for the better, but not being so "graspy" towards the outcome). I'm probably oversimplifying things, but I'm sort of on the slow cooking side of things. Practice-enlightment is practice-enlightenment. What is not practice?

If I've learned anything here from the teachers, the sangha, and from my practice, which aren't separate, it's not that we should be striving for something during practice. We need to become at peace with what we are, where we are now... and work with that... not run from or toward. Anyway, I'm just getting more confused again. lol

Gassho,

Risho

[galen]

Hi Galen,

I think that, these days, many in the Zen world would consider it a book that did tremendous harm in causing tremendous misunderstandings about Zen Practice. Below is what I write when the topic arises.

On the other hand, to each there own ... and different medicines for what ails different patients. If someone finds something in that book or way of Practice helpful, that is very good for them. However, it is not as we practice here in this corner of the Zen woods.

-------------------------

Zen and all Buddhism come in so many flavors ... All ultimately the same at heart perhaps, but very different in viewpoints and approach. So, the person new to Buddhism and Zen is left very confused by all the different books claiming to be a "Guide to Zen" or "Introduction to Buddhism" recommending often very very different things! Even "Soto" and "Shikantaza" folks can be quite varied in approach among themselves ... everyone like a cook with her own personal recipe for chicken soup!

...

["Three Pillars of Zen"] had great influence because it was so early (one of the few books on the subject 50 years ago), but it presented a view on Zen Practice and 'Kensho' that is not usual even in Japan (not even in Rinzai Zen, in my understanding) and represents a group ... named "Sanbokyodan" ... that is tiny is Japan but has had a HUGE and disproportionate influence in the West through derived groups such as the White Plum and Diamond Sangha! Read more here.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/sanbokyodan%20zen.pdf

The book presents a view of "Kensho" and "Enlightenment" that was very much present in corners of the Zen world at one time, especially in the west. I was recently reading a good book on the subject, a book about the culture surrounding "The Three Pillars of Zen" which presented to many such an extreme, misleading "Kensho or Bust" image of Zen practice. Here is a review of that book, called "Zen Teaching, Zen Practice: Philip Kapleau and The Three Pillars of Zen" edited by Kenneth Kraft, a long time student of Kapleau Roshi ...



You can also read a bit more on Kapleau and Yasutani Roshis' approach here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6514-SPECIAL-READING-ONCE-BORN-TWICE-BORN-ZEN-%28Part-1%29

Gassho, J

Thank you for this Jundo!