BOOK OF EQUANIMITY. Case 13

[galen]

Hi Fugen. Thanks for your reply. I like this koan but it took me a while to see what it was pointing at. This is one of the reasons why i am so grateful for this book club

Another interesting line and perhaps one i struggle with is in the preface to the assembly. It reads"mean treatment, like breaking a wooden pillow, should be used. What about when its time to depart?"

Interesting phrase. I stuggle with the idea of being mean. I presume this is trying to stop us trainees from setting up ideals about how things should be, hence why some of the treatment dished out at monastery's in the east seem cruel to a western softy like me! But maybe this is being cruel to be kind so that we are not holding on to ideals and false views when the time does come to depart.

Gassho

Thane

Thane,

I took it as tough love (even the mean part). Loving, but not so soft as we may miss the lessons to our true nature (even the use of the stick was seen as loving compassion by many seeking enlightenment; many sitting, even requested it to startle them back into full concentration). 8th century zen is sometimes hard with many levels going on with hidden meanings and lessons... it seems. I thought the last line of `when its time to depart' pointed at the same thing, still pressing to get It now, because there is not `time to waist in This life. Thank you for bringing this up!

This is upside down and going backwards , but it seems the first line (probably different then most here looked at it) could mean, if you give yourself up completely to others without truly knowing your own true nature, what do you really have to give? Many in that context are co-dependent to others (esp in todays Western societies), and are psychologically problematic with their own well being. You can give all you want to others and if thats your whole life cause, you may lose, or never find yourself in that resolve. Also, without the Dharmas, you should be fine on your own, because no teaching or person (in phenomena) is needed if you are in your own true Buddha nature. For me, that is what this opening represents. Get it while its hot, baby , no time to spare.... Right Now!!

[Tb]

Hi Thane and Galen.

Excellent posts, let me just add that being mean is not the same as being evil, and as you both talked about, tough love is what is pointed at here.
And yes, tough love is sometimes needed, sometimes not appropriate.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[galen]

Hi Thane and Galen.

Excellent posts, let me just add that being mean is not the same as being evil, and as you both talked about, tough love is what is pointed at here.
And yes, tough love is sometimes needed, sometimes not appropriate.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Thank you, Fugen. My thoughts on mean here may have been out `there somewhere, after I had thought about it. My question for you is, when is tough love not appropriate?

[Tb]

Thank you, Fugen. My thoughts on mean here may have been out `there somewhere, after I had thought about it. My question for you is, when is tough love not appropriate?

Hi.

In general i would say when the receiver is not ready for it, or otherwise unappropriate by for example bad language or harmful acts.
If anyone has an good example of this be free to say so.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Omoi Otoshi]

Can you know beforehand when something will be appropriate? Isn't it determined by the conditions in that moment? Dancing with life as it unfolds?

Gassho,
Pontus

[galen]

Hi.

In general i would say when the receiver is not ready for it, or otherwise unappropriate by for example bad language or harmful acts.
If anyone has an good example of this be free to say so.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

I would agree... but it seems so-called tough love, and it comes to perception of what that may be, it is the only true love. On any level, on any occasion for anyone interested in the highest form of honesty, of truth, and of love. Yes of course it is how it is presented, words chosen and timing. Zen seems to bring that full bore. Tough love is to the point, directed at our self and other, and seems to be the most healthy. Non coated, non pandered, just brutal honesty. It seems a large share of love has to dance around in being too careful at not an upset, or at bringing to life what we ourselves and others need to look at. A more direct line to truth for all concerned, instead of beating around the bush out of fear of upset. Real empathy and compassion also comes through in a much more meaningful way, instead of living our lives out of concern of bring attention to something that needs to be address, the longer it festers, grows and is delayed, the worse we all are long term. Even in a case of some of uncomfortable situation with in-laws, address it with compassion and if it does stir things, so be it, and then move on from there. Of course when used out of negativity, in a case of getting even with someone, or pushing a negative agenda, that is not love of any kind. Zen seems very much a stark, naked, drill that drills at our psyches, piercing through the shallow BS. Of course its not for everyone, esp if you are afraid of truth and real love. To live a life with someone, including our children, fearing to bring something up or take it on straight forward, seems to be a great injustice to them and ourselves. To many people live their whole lives in this heavy baggage and drama, that only grows and festers until it erupts into a huge deal, not always fixable. Tough love is the only true love.

[Tb]

Can you know beforehand when something will be appropriate? Isn't it determined by the conditions in that moment? Dancing with life as it unfolds?

Gassho,
Pontus

Hi.

Good questions, and i have to answer sometimes.
For instance you can get to know how a person/being will respond to some action, and therefore it is approriate although the reaction might not come straight away.
But yes, sometimes.

And yes, it is determined by the conditions in the moment, but the score may not come until later.

And i wish i could just live life as it unfolds, but you know, it is not so approriate when nature calls and you standing on the bus and you do your thing, you better wait until you get to an toilet...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Tb]

I would agree... but it seems so-called tough love, and it comes to perception of what that may be, it is the only true love. On any level, on any occasion for anyone interested in the highest form of honesty, of truth, and of love. Yes of course it is how it is presented, words chosen and timing. Zen seems to bring that full bore. Tough love is to the point, directed at our self and other, and seems to be the most healthy. Non coated, non pandered, just brutal honesty. It seems a large share of love has to dance around in being too careful at not an upset, or at bringing to life what we ourselves and others need to look at. A more direct line to truth for all concerned, instead of beating around the bush out of fear of upset. Real empathy and compassion also comes through in a much more meaningful way, instead of living our lives out of concern of bring attention to something that needs to be address, the longer it festers, grows and is delayed, the worse we all are long term. Even in a case of some of uncomfortable situation with in-laws, address it with compassion and if it does stir things, so be it, and then move on from there. Of course when used out of negativity, in a case of getting even with someone, or pushing a negative agenda, that is not love of any kind. Zen seems very much a stark, naked, drill that drills at our psyches, piercing through the shallow BS. Of course its not for everyone, esp if you are afraid of truth and real love. To live a life with someone, including our children, fearing to bring something up or take it on straight forward, seems to be a great injustice to them and ourselves. To many people live their whole lives in this heavy baggage and drama, that only grows and festers until it erupts into a huge deal, not always fixable. Tough love is the only true love.

Hi.

Good post, although i would disagree a bit, there are at least one more love-type i can think of, motherly-heart-love, although as you said it may be that they interconnect, depending on perceptions.
Jundo made an talk about it when he talked about the tenzo kyokun, http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafze...mind-grea.html

Might be worth a look again.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Omoi Otoshi]

Hi.

Good questions, and i have to answer sometimes.
For instance you can get to know how a person/being will respond to some action, and therefore it is approriate although the reaction might not come straight away.
But yes, sometimes.

And yes, it is determined by the conditions in the moment, but the score may not come until later.

And i wish i could just live life as it unfolds, but you know, it is not so approriate when nature calls and you standing on the bus and you do your thing, you better wait until you get to an toilet...

Mtfbwy
Fugen

Hi Fugen!

If you're reasonably sober, I think you'll find that you will not spontaneously take a leak on the bus ten out of ten times, even when dancing with life as it unfolds!

Sometimes I have a plan, but in the moment, I find myself improvising instead of following the plan. This change of course it often instant, not at all premeditated. But more often than not, it turns out well. So, even though you plan and think ahead, I think it's important to keep all doors open and not make up your mind before the moment actually arrives. When the mind is clear and open, timing and choice of action is often much more skillful than if we would have followed a well thought out plan or forced ourselves into action. I have experienced this in emergency situations at and outside of work, in martial arts sparring, in conversation and many other situations.

I noticed something a bit similar when I was in my lower teens. I was competing in shooting and found that when I tried to force the trigger, the whole body tensed up and I performed badly. On the other hand, when I forgot about pulling the trigger, the shot went off anyway, but with much better timing. Sometimes it felt as if someone much more skilled than I was shooting. I think many artists, such as writers or painters recognize this feeling. In the right state of mind, I would shoot ten after ten after ten. Just the dot, not a little black circle ten metres away, but the dot being the whole world. No shooter, no decision making, just the faint pings made when the shots went off. Then the ego crept back in and the thought that I was winning took over, and I suddenly started shooting eights and nines.

Gassho,
Pontus