BOOK OF EQUANIMITY. Case 12

[alan.r]

Please excuse a newbie’s voice here, and I’m not siding with anyone, but: I don’t see why some middle ground can’t be found here. Like: focusing on breath isn’t shikantaza, is not zazen, and is not our practice, but sometimes such a thing can be helpful when, etc (numerous examples: giving a speech at conference; sporting events; even in an argument with someone). Because the thing is this. Sometimes the focus in Zen on “don’t control” can easily become a slippery slope to some (I stress the word "some" here): for instance, if I get angry and I don’t check that anger in some way, some really awful stuff could potentially happen. So, is it control if I “let my anger go” or is it "better" if I “go with the flow” of my anger and punch the dude I want to punch?

I don’t know. I even remember a video from Jundo stating as much, that the breath can be a helpful tool. Not our practice, but sometimes helpful. Maybe I’m wrong and misunderstood.

Again, I don’t know, but this just seems like a pretty obvious place where two people could easily meet in the middle, find some common ground, and then drop it.

Otherwise, we’ve got a dead cat.

Gassho,
Alan

[Omoi Otoshi]

Sometimes the focus in Zen on “don’t control” can easily become a slippery slope to some (I stress the word "some" here): for instance, if I get angry and I don’t check that anger in some way, some really awful stuff could potentially happen. So, is it control if I “let my anger go” or is it "better" if I “go with the flow” of my anger and punch the dude I want to punch?

That's why traditionally, we let go of control in the cross legged position!
Have you ever punched someone in the face, sitting full lotus with your hands in your lap..?

Anger sometimes bubbles up in Shikantaza. Some days more and some days less. And we let it. We give it space and let it do whatever it wants (like Suzuki's cows). Let it burn us up completely. No controlling. No judging. No fear. No trying to push it away and force our focus back to "meditation". And when we let anger just be anger in this way, letting it rage freely without trying to put a leash on it, we can sometimes see it for what it is. Just a bubble, coming from nowhere, staying for a while, then naturally dissolving into nothing. Powerless really, when seen for what it truly is and not identified with.

Completely letting go like this, letting anger be anger, breathing be breathing, thoughts be thoughts, not seeking anything, not shutting anything out, letting whatever thought, emotion or sensation appears come into mind, in my opinion, is Shikantaza. So difficult, because it's so easy, so simple. We don't have to try to do anything, just stop meddling with the way body-mind naturally functions. This to me is the gateless gate, the goalless goal, the practiceless practice of no effort.

"What is called sitting-zen, sitting-meditation, is not meditation that is learned. It is the Dharma-gate of effortless ease. It is the practice and experience that gets to the bottom of the Buddha's enlightenment. The laws of the Universe are realized, around which there are no nets or cages. To grasp this meaning is to be like a dragon that has found water, or like a tiger before a mountain stronghold. Remember, true reality spontaneously emerges, and darkness and dissipation vanish at a stroke."

In other situations, when we are tired, stressed out, afraid, frustrated, distracted, unbalanced, run by the monkey mind (and we are not sitting facing the wall in the crossed legged position!), we may find ourselves on the brink of punching somebody in the face, shaking our child, saying something deeply hurtful. In those situations control is necessary, vital even. Just stay your hand and walk away. Practice letting go of control another time!

Gassho,
/Pontus

[Taigu]

Alan it is what I said in the original post, valuable technique but not our practice.
I don't want people to be misguided and think that this is an option.

Meet in the middle?

Anyway, ask galen, he seems to know better.

gassho

Taigu

or...ask Pontus ( nice to see back, buddy!), he has a very good take on this!

[galen]

Again with your idea of "fear"... What do I fear?

A simple thing: I make sure people practice and get the right directions. It is my role as a teacher. See me as a referee. Does that help? makes sense?

galen, Breathing is NOT our practice. No need to pay attention to breath.

That's all. And that's big. And simple too.

Now if you want to do something else, advise people to practice something else...well, this is not the place. Because Jundo and I come from a lineage where BREATHING is just what it is. No more no less.

Now, thank you for being kind with me
and... I have enough.

It means...

Take it or leave it. Breathing is out (and don't you worry, it is taking care of itself).

Back to Dogen. Back to simplicity, Off with this stuff.


gassho

Taigu

Taigu,

I have you right where I want you, all emotional and losing sleep. You might try breathing into your diaphragm.... ever so slowly. I don't know where you get this fearful rant about breathing, I do not count breaths, use koans or any mantras to sit, and I would put the depth of contemplation up against yours any day. Do you breath while you sit, or do you hold your breath ? You are fearful you are losing control here, control is the issue here and very ego driven! But no worries, one of your little clinger zenners will show up soon and try to bail you out. If you are a teacher, then teach me, with out so much whining and acting like a teenager. Go ahead and kick me off this site, be a man, otherwise I will get back to you in a couple days, meanwhile get some sleep.

And you might try reading the wisdom here of alan.r............


_/\_

galen

[Taigu]

I don t kick people out, I just make a point aboit the true teachings according to what is taught here.
As to all you assume, I leave it to you.

Gassho


Taigu

[Taigu]

By the way, contemplation contests are not part pf our practice.

I am also sorry to read your words:

You are fearful you are losing control here, control is the issue here and very ego driven! But no worries, one of your little clinger zenners will show up soon and try to bail you out. If you are a teacher, then teach me, with out so much whining and acting like a teenager. Go ahead and kick me off this site, be a man, otherwise I will get back to you in a A couple of days

The mirror principle at its best. My breath is calm and what you describe applies to your mind state. Please , have a look!

Be well and take care


Gassho


Taigu

[galen]

I don t kick people out, I just make a point aboit the true teachings according to what is taught here.
As to all you assume, I leave it to you.

Gassho


Taigu

Thank you! You have obviously have been doing some assuming yourself..... Later, man...

[alan.r]

That's why traditionally, we let go of control in the cross legged position!
Have you ever punched someone in the face, sitting full lotus with your hands in your lap..?

Anger sometimes bubbles up in Shikantaza. Some days more and some days less. And we let it. We give it space and let it do whatever it wants (like Suzuki's cows). Let it burn us up completely. No controlling. No judging. No fear. No trying to push it away and force our focus back to "meditation". And when we let anger just be anger in this way, letting it rage freely without trying to put a leash on it, we can sometimes see it for what it is. Just a bubble, coming from nowhere, staying for a while, then naturally dissolving into nothing. Powerless really, when seen for what it truly is and not identified with.

Completely letting go like this, letting anger be anger, breathing be breathing, thoughts be thoughts, not seeking anything, not shutting anything out, letting whatever thought, emotion or sensation appears come into mind, in my opinion, is Shikantaza. So difficult, because it's so easy, so simple. We don't have to try to do anything, just stop meddling with the way body-mind naturally functions. This to me is the gateless gate, the goalless goal, the practiceless practice of no effort.

"What is called sitting-zen, sitting-meditation, is not meditation that is learned. It is the Dharma-gate of effortless ease. It is the practice and experience that gets to the bottom of the Buddha's enlightenment. The laws of the Universe are realized, around which there are no nets or cages. To grasp this meaning is to be like a dragon that has found water, or like a tiger before a mountain stronghold. Remember, true reality spontaneously emerges, and darkness and dissipation vanish at a stroke."

In other situations, when we are tired, stressed out, afraid, frustrated, distracted, unbalanced, run by the monkey mind (and we are not sitting facing the wall in the crossed legged position!), we may find ourselves on the brink of punching somebody in the face, shaking our child, saying something deeply hurtful. In those situations control is necessary, vital even. Just stay your hand and walk away. Practice letting go of control another time!

Gassho,
/Pontus

Yeah, you're last paragraph is what I was referring to. I wasn't talking about "on the zafu." I'm talking about "control" during an argument, you know, when something like anger comes or spite or whatever - like you say, it's pretty difficult to just let it go or let it be in that instance, and frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone here hasn't "checked" their anger, their self-pity, their need for attention, their self-importance, at some point off the zafu. So, that's where the slope is, or can be, off the zafu. Especially for new folk. Anyway, and still, look, no, to me, this is like two people talking past each other, though I must say that galen's last comments have been rather disheartening. I thought Taigu (and I still do, Taigu) was and is being reasonable, but the problem seemed and still seems to be this:

Taigu was talking about breathing during Shikantaza (as you are, mainly, Pontus).

galen seemed to be talking about breathing not during shikantaza and pushing it pretty hard.

And frankly, I don't see what the problem is with a little attention to breath here and there, out in the world (though always out in the world, etc), though, as I said, I think galen was probably pushing the breath thing a bit too hard. So, it seemed to me there was, and still is, a place to meet in the middle on this. Otherwise, it would be like saying, "Look, our practice is this, shikantaza, don't mix other practices." And well, shit, I practice writing. So, I give up writing, even off the zafu? Seems silly. The practice of breathing, of being aware of the breath, quick before a free throw, on a jog (I mean, these are often prescribed things, being aware of the breath, for athletes, c'mon guys), and to say no to that seems, well, okay, I'll leave it there.

Gassho,
Alan

[Taigu]

Thank you for your post and patience, Alan. This thread is s beautiful illustration of the very nature of " extensive discussion" of the case 12.
That s why I invite people here ( not mere " clinger zenners") to ask themselves :

What is the real world?
So how do you plough the field of your own practice?
Can you catch yourself at over doing, over thinking?
How to forget one s state and return same as fish and bird? Does this take a special effort?

Gassho


T.

[galen]

Yeah, you're last paragraph is what I was referring to. I wasn't talking about "on the zafu." I'm talking about "control" during an argument, you know, when something like anger comes or spite or whatever - like you say, it's pretty difficult to just let it go or let it be in that instance, and frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone here hasn't "checked" their anger, their self-pity, their need for attention, their self-importance, at some point off the zafu. So, that's where the slope is, or can be, off the zafu. Especially for new folk. Anyway, and still, look, no, to me, this is like two people talking past each other, though I must say that galen's last comments have been rather disheartening. I thought Taigu (and I still do, Taigu) was and is being reasonable, but the problem seemed and still seems to be this:

Taigu was talking about breathing during Shikantaza (as you are, mainly, Pontus).

galen seemed to be talking about breathing not during shikantaza and pushing it pretty hard.

And frankly, I don't see what the problem is with a little attention to breath here and there, out in the world (though always out in the world, etc), though, as I said, I think galen was probably pushing the breath thing a bit too hard. So, it seemed to me there was, and still is, a place to meet in the middle on this. Otherwise, it would be like saying, "Look, our practice is this, shikantaza, don't mix other practices." And well, shit, I practice writing. So, I give up writing, even off the zafu? Seems silly. The practice of breathing, of being aware of the breath, quick before a free throw, on a jog (I mean, these are often prescribed things, being aware of the breath, for athletes, c'mon guys), and to say no to that seems, well, okay, I'll leave it there.

Gassho,
Alan

Thank you, Alan.... i will own every part of that!


_/\_

galen

[alan.r]

Thank you, Alan.... i will own every part of that!


_/\_

galen

And, as Taigu has artfully and with perfect timing reminded us, I'll own my part in over-thinking all this! A thing I catch myself doing all the time.

Gassho
Alan

[Jundo]

I don’t know. I even remember a video from Jundo stating as much, that the breath can be a helpful tool. Not our practice, but sometimes helpful. Maybe I’m wrong and misunderstood.

Just for reference, here is that "Beginingless Beginners" Talk ...

What’s the most important thing to remember about ‘breathing‘ during Zazen?

DON’T STOP!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7695-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-XI%29&highlight=breathe

Gassho, J

[Omoi Otoshi]

Yeah, you're last paragraph is what I was referring to. I wasn't talking about "on the zafu." I'm talking about "control" during an argument, you know, when something like anger comes or spite or whatever - like you say, it's pretty difficult to just let it go or let it be in that instance, and frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone here hasn't "checked" their anger, their self-pity, their need for attention, their self-importance, at some point off the zafu. So, that's where the slope is, or can be, off the zafu. Especially for new folk.

I check and control myself every day, probably every hour. Whether that is good or bad depends on how you regard your practice IMHO. If you have a very idealistic interpretation of buddhism and zen buddhist practice, then checking back and controlling anger is a very bad thing. There shouldn't be anger in the first place in this idealistic picture, and if there still is, as good buddhists we should immediately become aware of it when it arises and just be mindful of it. The truth is, sometimes even buddhists get stark, raving mad and behave badly. It's OK. We're only humans, with all sorts of faults. There's no need to play charades, trying to impersonate our idea of a perfect buddhist. Instead, we can just acknowledge the damage done, the hurt inflicted, and ask for forgiveness. I do believe zen practice helps us become less frustrated and angry, but I don't think we should expect to achieve perfect balance at all times. True balance for me is the ability to adapt to the various circumstances life throws at you. If you feel perfectly happy, enjoy it. If you feel angry, accept that, be angry and adapt to being in a state of anger. Iif you did punch someone in the face, you adapt to that situation too, face it head on, take responsability and don't blame someone or something else. Causes and conditions put us where we are. All we can do in this moment is change the direction we're going. We can't do anything about the past, just learn from it. True balance is accepting and dancing with life as it constantly evolves, in or out of balance. On the Zafu, in stillness and silence, we are completely exposed, without anywhere for the ego to hide. In our busy, everyday lives, we are often under stress, distracted, forced to make decisions, choices, judge things. But we don't have to actively try to bring Zazen into every activity. If we allow ourselves to drop body and mind on the Zafu, then slowly, automatically, effortlessly (if we allow it), we will find Zazen mind, Bodhi mind arising in other activities too. But we can never force it to. Limiting the stress, distractions, decisions, judging and expectations we expose ourselves to helps though, in my own humble experience.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Taigu]

What you write here at the end of your post is exactly what I give my life too. Surender, no grasping. Allowing, non doing. This is an excellent description of what takes place from zafu to life and life to zafu.

Thank you Pontus, and I really hope life is better for you now.

gassho


Taigu

[Mp]

On the Zafu, in stillness and silence, we are completely exposed, without anywhere for the ego to hide.

Thank you Pontus ... beautifully put.

Gassho
Michael