BOOK OF EQUNINITY, case 7 with subtitles

[adrianbkelly]

Very nice, Dokan, Thank you!

_/\_

Ade

[Kaishin]

_/\_ .

[charst46]

Thank you, Taigu.

Gassho.

[Ekai]

Not much more to add here, just thank you.

Gassho,
Ekai

[galen]

Thank you Jundo, Taigu and all!

For the opportunity to enter this space, no-space.

New-be here .

This koan seems to speak to the phrase, if you have to ask.... ie, toys; or ad anything, you are missing the point already. That point seems to be that if you seemingly need to be preached to too get It, you are not vested personally enough at the deepest level of your being to get It yourself. If we feel the need to hear it or be shown the path of the Way (Ox-herding), we have a hell of a Mt to climb (hello galen . Esp us here in the `west, we always want the quick easy way, not paying the price, but would rather it be handed to us, just to keep our unknowing shallowness in continuance. Breathing into 'boundless expanse'.

That was scary as hell, but I finally posted, or I didn't !?




galen

[Ray]

Everyday i feel that there are too many situations where i have said too much. By the time i have become aware of this, it is too late. I aspire to always remember to ask myself before opening my mouth is if what i am about to say is "true" "necessary" " helpful" "kind" and "appropriate for the situation" if the thing i am going to say does not hit all the above i feel there is no point in saying what i am going to say. However, every day i fail and need to make the effort the next day to live with others in this manner. Maybe it is too high a target but i feel it is good practice!

Gassho

I often relunctantly open my mouth. You have to say something kind of thing. Kobun roshi used to escape from teaching situations.
Words of teachers are given to wash words away, brush thoughts, sweep clouds and hide a white crane in the moon.
Words of teachers are not for necklace making, or just outfits to wear.

Words not to quote. Words to quit our own small and smelly world!!!

These are words striking the very body-bell of IT.
No words is just as good. To remove the posibility to toy away with things is as good
like Buddha on Vulture peak holding a single flower,
like the sound of one hand clapping.

In this Yakusan is second to none, heir of Sekito Kisen, the stone-strong old and fierce lion, he offers an eloquent flesh, blood, bones, marrow to his gaping audience.

You have to investigate the meaning of he, who is he in he sleeps no more?
What is the sound of a real sutra?
What is the real voice of an old monk?

I am often appalled at this chatty mind of mine, at this chatty forum, cosy forum but sometimes too wordy.
Can you express in a few words the virtue of waking up to this?

How many times we loose this wonderful opportunity to shut up? How many times we could just offer a voiceless presence, eloquent voice of being?

Enough said!

gassho



Taigu

[RichardH]

Everyday i feel that there are too many situations where i have said too much. By the time i have become aware of this, it is too late. I aspire to always remember to ask myself before opening my mouth is if what i am about to say is "true" "necessary" " helpful" "kind" and "appropriate for the situation" if the thing i am going to say does not hit all the above i feel there is no point in saying what i am going to say. However, every day i fail and need to make the effort the next day to live with others in this manner. Maybe it is too high a target but i feel it is good practice!

Gassho

.... Can relate completely. And here there are words words words... discomfort discomfort discomfort. ....even this.

[RichardH]

Hi Taigu. This may be taking this thread and running off in a different direction with your talk... but it is like a seed in my teeth. I love Treeleaf, but this board component.. this chat component, is an old familiar online story for me, that brings an old familiar feeling. To participate is to talk.. The question you ask is how to be a quiet presence, and the answer (at least to the board I see) is to log off, and stay logged off. Logging on only for practical reasons, or saying "will be there/here" for zazenkai. Because there is no other formal reason to log on... there is only saying for saying's sake, to try and connect with Sangha.. and it is not working. It is alienating. So in order to not be alienated, and to preserve this Treeleaf practice support.. I have to stop posting, and just show up for practice, otherwise it will sour as internet boards do.

Thank you for this kick in the head thread, and your teaching. gassho kojip

[Shohei]

Beautiful teaching and I should shut up right there but here I go ruining silence with this

My boy is 3. His mom went on a trip for a week away and he never let on it bugged him much.
He asked a few time to here whereabouts and I was straight forward and said she went on a plane and would be back in one week.

Since then, more so as of late, he would lose sight of her for a moment and have a crying fit yelling for her, etc. She would always respond(though tonight she said she too was at her wits end with this bit)

He started the same thing with me and let me tell ya its hard to get anything done that needs doing or have 2 moments to yourself when he was doing this.

So I tried every thing I could to get him to see there was nothing wrong. We reassured him we were right here, kind encouraging words, getting him to share what was wrong, sending him to have his fit away from us.

Truth of the matter, like the monks, he wanted a toy, a reaction, attention(good or bad he wanted it) and thinking we were kind we gave it to him.

Like practice, the only way for him to get this one was on his own, the attention (mental toy) just fed the negative behavior!

So I waited tonight, before bed, while we all read stories and he and his sister were engrossed in their stories and picked up the koan book and walked out on to the front deck and sat down by the door reading... and waiting.
1 min. passed and I heard him start calling, immediately crying... Im not that cold or cruel really! I wanted to up and go in and say I am here Im right here its okay (but I had done this 100 times to no avail so...) but instead I sat reading... he came to the door, big tears streaming and looked at me.

I did not blink but turned the page and with that he returned to his book pile and never looked back.

shortly after i came inside and said Hi and sat and read with them and did it again... seriously...no reaction!!

In my drive to help him, so make things right, I do a disservice, this lesson my son needed no more words, he need to realize for him self and I needed to get out of the way. Any thing else was extra and just added fuel to the fire.

Sorry for the wordiness.

Gassho
Shohei

[galen]

It seems, to be a part of a website, Zen or not, you would have to do some enter acting among the community, isn't that what it is about (life)?

If a person was in person, or where they could get to a zendo/meeting place, it would be easier to be amongst without so much wordage/verbage.

I liked the take of Risho, its not so much words, but the clinging and attachment, that is the problem. Seemingly, to get past concepts, one must go through concepts to get There, and would that not also pertain to words. Both being valuable tools, left as such.......... many lessons here for my`self!



galen

[Jundo]

Logging on only for practical reasons, or saying "will be there/here" for zazenkai. Because there is no other formal reason to log on... there is only saying for saying's sake, to try and connect with Sangha.. and it is not working. It is alienating. So in order to not be alienated, and to preserve this Treeleaf practice support.. I have to stop posting, and just show up for practice, otherwise it will sour as internet boards do.

Thank you for this kick in the head thread, and your teaching. gassho kojip

Hi Kojip,

If I may drop in on this ... everything in moderation, and nothing "sours" about a place to meet unless the mind starts to sour. One does not have to respond to every post, one does not have too talk too much. As well, one can respond sometimes, talk when a good time to talk. I wrote on the sister thread to this one today ...

A time to talk and explain, a time to be silent.

A time when silence speaks with a Buddha's tongue, a time when silence is just being tongue tied.



Important to know which is which.

I wouldn't run to extremes. Even Gautama Buddha and his Buddies knew when the time was right to go into the grass hut and close the door, and when to come out and socialize. Each in its time.

Gassho, J

[Nenka]

Thank you for this post, Taigu.

Jen

P.S. Galen:

New-be here .

I've seen it spelled a lot of ways before, but never "new-be." That's fabulous! We're all new-be.

[Thane]

Taigu

Just be

Gassho Thane

[RichardH]

Hi Kojip,

If I may drop in on this ... everything in moderation, and nothing "sours" about a place to meet unless the mind starts to sour. One does not have to respond to every post, one does not have too talk too much. As well, one can respond sometimes, talk when a good time to talk. I wrote on the sister thread to this one today ...



I wouldn't run to extremes. Even Gautama Buddha and his Buddies knew when the time was right to go into the grass hut and close the door, and when to come out and socialize. Each in its time.

Gassho, J

Thank you, Jundo. I realize it is only this mind that can sour... with its own earnest views and values, its own tiresome theater.

Gassho kojip.

[galen]

From my limited perspective..... it seems, whether Buddha, a high priest or master take the high seat having nothing to say, its not about words in and of themselves, but its more about symbolism to the assembled, to not sit around waiting to be told and get it explained conceptually. That only furthers the clinging to every word and concept.... ie, ego, and misses the point of feeling (intuiting) words and taking them on physically, not mentally. It seems to teach the assembled (us), sitting and waiting in neediness and clinging to every word misses the point and keeps you stuck (ego). Practice, practice is the only Way, and words can be a hindrance, if we cling to every Masters words, not feeling every word to that deepest part of ourselves... unconsciously and intuitively. In the intro to this book, Wick points out while reading the koans, feel them as apposed to totally comprehending them conceptually. Feel Them!

After all, I think it was the Rinzai sect or maybe Soto school of thought, that when a monk had reached a certain height of mastery, he would go from community to community, in what they called Dharma Dueling (I really get a kick out of that phrase!). That was part of the ‘trip’ to liberation, and of course, they were very verbal. When Plato tells of Socrates going from one palace after another, he would have conceptual battles of philosophy, vs what could be considered moral. These intellectualizing/conceptualizing verbal bantering were not won totally by the mind, the one who could most intuit the deeper meaning won the so-called battle. Where would we be without words, written or spoken, of some of the great texts ever written by masters such Dogen?

So in closing, I do not apologize for the length, the whirling spinning messy phrasing , miss spells and such of this post, it goes with My territory.