BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

[andyZ]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Kojip,

I have "Blue Cliff Record" book where this koan also appears. It's a bit longer there and it actually talks about the question that the emperor asked. So the question was about the two truths conventional and ultimate (relative and absolute). And the "holly truth of Buddhism" was that the relative and the absolute are not two. So that's what the emperor wanted to ask Bodhidharma about. The "vast emptiness" is the absolute and the "I don't know" is the relative. I think in that sense Dogen's comment about "not merging" makes perfect sense.

Hi Andy... could you expand a bit on how "I don't know" is the relative? Thanks.

Gassho, kojip.

Kojip,

I may be full of BS, but here it goes
Each one of us is a manifestation of the absolute, so when emperor asked to describe that "relative" self - the person who was standing in front of him - Bodhidharma also said - "I don't know". In a way these two responses "merged" b/c they both came from the same place of emptiness.

[andyZ]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Yes I agree with Rich, his explanation makes sense.

I'm not sure if we can get all these details correct though. As Jundo mentioned in his introduction to koan studies talk a lot of language and all the details that preceded these encounters may be lost to us. For me the important question is why Bodhidharma spent 9 years facing the wall after this encounter?
Supposedly, he was already enlightened. I guess Dogen here gives us a clue that China of that time "wasn't ripe" to receive this teaching or even perhaps Bodhidharma himself wasn't skilful enough in transmitting his teaching and he realized that. So he sat for 9 years perfecting his skill/waiting for the right moment.

[Risho]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Yes I agree with Rich, his explanation makes sense.

I'm not sure if we can get all these details correct though. As Jundo mentioned in his introduction to koan studies talk a lot of language and all the details that preceded these encounters may be lost to us. For me the important question is why Bodhidharma spent 9 years facing the wall after this encounter?
Supposedly, he was already enlightened. I guess Dogen here gives us a clue that China of that time "wasn't ripe" to receive this teaching or even perhaps Bodhidharma himself wasn't skilful enough in transmitting his teaching and he realized that. So he sat for 9 years perfecting his skill/waiting for the right moment.

I was wondering what Benka's three offerings was in reference to. I found one link that talks about him with this koan: http://www.conceptos.net/cafebuda/shoyoroku/i02.htm

I couldn't even find anything in A Concise Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen

Gassho,

Risho

[Jundo]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Yes, this is really interesting, mainly because that "no merging" part is a bit difficult to decipher. What or Who is the "no merging" referencing, I keep asking myself? Kojip has one take, Andy has another, and Rich gives us a third.

Hi Alan. I think Andy and I are talking around the same point. Form and emptiness are one..not-two. Realizing 100% form is realizing 100% emptiness.. 99% form is not emptiness... that is what I mean by holding back .. not "going over", or not moving completely.

But whether this is what is referenced in the koan I'm not sure.

A translator's choice of wording is just a person's heartfelt opinion, yet for reference, here are how two other translations handled this phrase which Tanahashi expressed "no merging" ...

Nishijima-Cross:

The emperor did not understand. The master knew that the time was not right. So, on that nineteenth day of the tenth lunar month [the master] quietly left, traveling north up the [Yangzi] River.

Shasta Abbey:

The emperor had failed to awaken to what Bodhidharma was pointing to, and the Master realized that the occasion was not opportune. So, on the nineteenth day of the tenth lunar month (November 27), he snuck away to north of the Yangtze River

So, the emperor was all "I don't know" about "I don't know". :P

Gassho, J

[Myoku]

Question to Shishin's commentary to Case 2

NOTE FROM JUNDO: HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I MOVED THIS OVER HERE ...

Hi all,
I not want to disturb the main Case 2 discussion, thus a separate thread: I stumbled over a sentence in Gerry Shishin Wicks wonderful commentary:

"There is no fixed thing that is the self - nothing to grasp onto, no firm ground
upon which to stand, no right understanding to attain"

I can relate pretty good to almost all of that, but the very last. The right understanding to me seems just to understand that there is no fixed self, that there is no safe ground and even that our understanding is always incomplete. To me right understanding is basically the same as the right view, which the buddha said to be essential. No ?

Glad about any comments that get me the "right understanding" of "there is no right understanding" ;-)
Gassho and thanks for reading,
Myoku

[Jundo]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

I was wondering what Benka's three offerings was in reference to. I found one link that talks about him with this koan: http://www.conceptos.net/cafebuda/shoyoroku/i02.htm

Hi Risho,

Thank you for the link.

That is really a wonderful resource on some of the puns, stories and poems that might be referenced in the Preface and Appreciatory Verse. (I say "might be", because the source and its meaning is sometimes clear and sometimes open to opinions). There is also no information or link to who is the author of that webpage (I don't think it is Cleary), which adds to the mystery.

I would just add on the reference to "host" and "guest" that these are also traditional Chan/Zen code words for "the absolute" and "the relative".

Preface to the Assembly

Benka’s three offerings did not prevent his being punished (1): If a luminous jewel were thrown at them, few are the men who would not draw their swords. (2) For an impromptu guest there’s not an impromptu host; (3) he’s provisionally acceptable but not absolutely acceptable. If you can grasp rare, valuable treasure, let’s toss in a dead cat’s head and see…(4)


Notes

1. In China a man named Benka presented an unpolished jewel to three rulers in succession, but none of them recognized its value. Emperor Wu similarly did not know Bodhidharma’s true worth.

2. Seeing something strange coming at them and not knowing the jewel’s value, most men would grab for their sword thinking only to protect themselves. Again, this refers to the Emperor’s response to Bodhidharma’s words.

3. A good guest should announce his coming beforehand; a good host is supposed to be always ready to entertain. Emperor Wu failed to be a ready host for his guest, Bodhidharma.

4. In Goto Egen, vol. 13, is the following story: A monk asked Sozan what was the most valuable thing in the world. Sozan replied that a dead cat’s head was the most valuable. When the monk asked why, Sozan replied that it was because nobody could put a price on it. A dead cat here points to the main case.

Appreciatory verse

Emptiness, no holiness—
The questioner’s far off.
Gain is to swing the axe and not harm the nose; (7)
Loss is to drop the pot and not look back.
In solitude he sits cool at Shorin;
In silence the right Decree’s fully revealed.
The autumn’s lucid and the moon’s a turning frosty wheel;
The milky way’s pale, and Big Dipper’s handle hangs low.
In line the robe and bowl handed on to descendents;
Henceforth are medicine to men and devas. (8)

7. This couplet refers to two traditional incidents. In olden China a man named Eijin had some mud stuck on the tip of his nose. He had his expert axeman remove it for him. The expert ‘s whistling axe-stroke cleanly removed the dirt without harming his nose in the least.

In the second incident, while a man named Shoseki lived at Taigen, he once carried an earthenware steampot behind him on a shoulder pole. By accident it slipped off and broke, but even as he heard it crash he kept right on going and never looked back.

8. Bodhidharma presented his robe and begging bowl to his Dharma heir, Eko, as a Symbol of his approval, and this practice continued through the Sixth Patriarch. Devas are heavenly beings.

Gassho, J

[alan.r]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Yes I agree with Rich, his explanation makes sense.

Yep, especially in light of the other translations. Thanks, Jundo, for those. Simplicity where I was making things more complex than necessary!

[Jundo]

Re: Question to Shishin's commentary to Case 2

NOTE FROM JUNDO: HOPE YOU DON'T MIND, I MOVED THIS OVER HERE ...

Hi all,
I not want to disturb the main Case 2 discussion, thus a separate thread: I stumbled over a sentence in Gerry Shishin Wicks wonderful commentary:

"There is no fixed thing that is the self - nothing to grasp onto, no firm ground
upon which to stand, no right understanding to attain"

I can relate pretty good to almost all of that, but the very last. The right understanding to me seems just to understand that there is no fixed self, that there is no safe ground and even that our understanding is always incomplete. To me right understanding is basically the same as the right view, which the buddha said to be essential. No ?

Glad about any comments that get me the "right understanding" of "there is no right understanding" ;-)
Gassho and thanks for reading,
Myoku

Hi Myoku,

An attainer's attaining that there is nothing separate to attain, no separate objective to attain by any separate attainer ... is the Great Attainment we attainers all strive for and may hopefully get to, and (in Dogen's way of Practice-Enlightenment expression) the very "nothing to attain" is found right in the very act and diligent effort of attainers to so attain, both before and after we get there! :shock: Kind of a "reverse Catch-22".

I was recently looking at a passage of the Diamond Sutra in which Buddha states that there is no Buddha to be or become, nor anything for the Buddha to Teach, nor any Supreme Unexcelled Enlightenment (annuttara-samyak-sambodhi) to attain either ... which is the Supreme Unexcelled Enlightenment of a Buddha as he Taught and which we should strive for!

"What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?"

The Venerable Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha's teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent existences and therefore cannot be described ...

...

The Buddha replied, ... "Subhuti, in fact, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind. What do you think, Subhuti? In ancient times, when the Tathagata was living with Buddha Dipankara, did he attain anything called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind?"

"No, World-Honored One. According to what I understand from the teachings of the Buddha, there is no attaining of anything called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind."

The Buddha said, "Right you are, Subhuti. In fact, there does not exist the so-called highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind that the Tathagata attains. Because if there had been any such thing, Buddha Dipankara would not have predicted of me, 'In the future, you will come to be a Buddha called Shakyamuni.' This prediction was made because there is, in fact, nothing that can be attained that is called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind. Why? Tathagata means the suchness of all things (dharmas). Someone would be mistaken to say that the Tathagata has attained the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind since there is not any highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind to be attained. Subhuti, the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind that the Tathagata has attained is neither graspable nor elusive. ...

http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhi ... mond1.html

So, perhaps "Right Understanding" is no "Right Understanding" ... which is "RIght Understanding". :shock:

Gassho, J

[Jinyo]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Hi there - some interesting interpretations/responses here.

Reading over the Main Case again it struck me as pointing to the way in which the human mind
tries to arrive at knowledge/meaning/understanding.

Emperor Wu has already made some decisions - firstly, he's decided that the truth of buddhism is a holy truth - and
secondly that the ultimate meaning of this holy truth can be delivered in words.

These two assumptions are tainted by delusion.

Bodhidharma replies 'Vast emptiness. No holiness'

I agree with Andy - this reply is probably a concise reference/pointing to the absolute and the relative.

When Emperor Wu asks who stands before him - Bodhidharma chooses to reply in the absolute,
but Wu misses the point - so there can be no merging (common undrstanding).

In Wicks's notes he differentiates between understanding and creating an understanding. Emperor Wu
falls into the way of creating an understanding when he makes the assumption that buddhism is a holy truth.
When we create an understanding we live in the realm of dualistic thought. Unknowing - or 'don't know' releases
us into a more open, intuitive way of understanding.

I don't know if Bodhidharma sat facing the wall for nine years in a profound state of 'unknowing' but I like
the appreciatory verse,

'In solitude he sits cool at Shorin,
in silence the Right Decree's fully revealed.'

Gassho

Willow

[Thane]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Hi folks

I have really enjoyed reading your discussions on case 2. Thank you Reverend Jundo for your explanation of the appreciatory verse and preface to the assembly i found that very helpful. The lines referring to a dead cat's head and swing the axe and not harm the nose were confusing me but your explanation really helps bring the meaning of these sentences to light.

One line that keeps striking me is the final sentence in Gerry Shishin Wick's commentary "when Bodhidharma left the emporer, he spent nine years facing a wall. What was he doing for those nine years? If you understand this koan, you can answer without hesitation". Well what struck me was that Gerry Shishin Wick was challenging the reader here to think deeply about he koan. Still not sure i know this without hesitation but what came to me was that Bodhidharma was doing nothing. just practicing, perhaps leading by example, just following his practice, knowing that people when ready would come to him for teaching? :shock:

In gassho

Thane

[Shohei]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Merit of being, with out seeking out merit. Nothing holy(all as-it-is-perfectly-holy), just do it.
The Don't know tears down what the emperor had built up and what stands out to me is with that Bodhidharma sits his 9 year stint.
Good idea!

Gassho
Shohei

[BrianW]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Considerable legend and myth surrounding Bodhidharma and whenever I hear the name I think of the supposition that he was instrumental in bringing martial arts to China. Many believe China had martial arts well before this was purported to take place. (Of course, as Jundo has pointed out in other posts much about Bodhidharma may be more myth than fact.) Anyway with the following question in mind:

Can you think of some activities in your life that would be/are richer when undertaken dropping completely all thought of reason or merit or goal or holiness/specialness to it?

Could/can you still manage to diligently and sincerely pursue the activities nonetheless (like Bodhidharma so diligently sitting for so long) working toward its successful accomplishment?

How would you accomplish (or "non-accomplish") such a thing? What's such accomplishing-non-accomplishing like?

I think of Chinese Martial Arts, which I have practiced since I was 18 years old. I see this on a number of levels. When you do a form or kata, at best there is not much in the way of thinking about what you are doing….yes you do have flashes of thoughts that come into your head, but at best you are flowing from one move to the next and not evaluating every move. Also Kung Fu makes me think of Jundo’s mentioning of the “dance” in relationship to our practice. At its best doing a form is simply flow with no evaluation, no thoughts of the end, it just is. Below Jackie Chan doing a snake form.

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[RichardH]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

A translator's choice of wording is just a person's heartfelt opinion, yet for reference, here are how two other translations handled this phrase which Tanahashi expressed "no merging" ...

Nishijima-Cross:

The emperor did not understand. The master knew that the time was not right. So, on that nineteenth day of the tenth lunar month [the master] quietly left, traveling north up the [Yangzi] River.

Shasta Abbey:

The emperor had failed to awaken to what Bodhidharma was pointing to, and the Master realized that the occasion was not opportune. So, on the nineteenth day of the tenth lunar month (November 27), he snuck away to north of the Yangtze River

So, the emperor was all "I don't know" about "I don't know". :P

Gassho, J

...oh. well, it was a chance talk about the wild fox just the same..

Gassho, kojip

[RichardH]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Regarding Bodhidharma facing the wall for 9 months... In "Tracing back the radiance, Chinul's Korean way of Zen" by Robert Buswell, Chinul talks at length about "sudden awakening,gradual cultivation" Awakening to the unconditioned/conditioned or emptiness/form.... is by nature sudden. Yet after sudden awakening , there is gradual cultivation... or clarification.. due to beginningless habit energy of body and mind. Facing the wall is clarifying. If there is no final state of awakening..clarification is ongoing.

This is just a thought...... maybe it is relevant?

[Jundo]

Re: BOOK OF EQUANIMITY - Case 2

Regarding Bodhidharma facing the wall for 9 months... In "Tracing back the radiance, Chinul's Korean way of Zen" by Robert Buswell, Chinul talks at length about "sudden awakening,gradual cultivation" Awakening to the unconditioned/conditioned or emptiness/form.... is by nature sudden. Yet after sudden awakening , there is gradual cultivation... or clarification.. due to beginningless habit energy of body and mind. Facing the wall is clarifying. If there is no final state of awakening..clarification is ongoing.

This is just a thought...... maybe it is relevant?

Hi Kojip,

The greet Korean Son (Zen) teacher Chinul's expressions, as I understand, may speak of the Rinzai emphasis on the breakthrough experience of Koan Introspection Zazen, his way as inspired by the founder of Koan Instrospection Zen, Tahui ... but chocolate or vanilla, same sweetness.

Dogen might be said to have spoken of endless moments of sudden awakening, manifesting myriad flavors and colors great and small, some (in Wisdom) we may realize and some (in ignorance) not ... which sudden awakening is the very path of cultivation itself. In other words, every step of the journey ... from beginner to Buddha (not two) ... is sudden and awakened with each step to those who know it, yet we move forward and ahead ever cultivating and making awakening real. Awakening is not seeing a one time snap shot of a frozen postcard garden, but a living garden which takes constant tending and cultivation to make real ... yet is Buddha all through, spring summer fall winter spring, bare or flowering or strangled with weeds.

Something like that.

... "when Bodhidharma left the emporer, he spent nine years facing a wall. What was he doing for those nine years? If you understand this koan, you can answer without hesitation". ... what came to me was that Bodhidharma was doing nothing. just practicing, perhaps leading by example, just following his practice, knowing that people when ready would come to him for teaching?

On questions like this, you too should "Just Sit" for 9 years, then 9 years more, then 9 years more ... with emphasis not simply on the "sit" of "Just Sit", or the "9 years" of "9 years", but the "Just This" of "Just Sit". Then one may finally reach the reachless-stage of realizing that one was "Ready" all along.

Something like that.

Gassho, J

PS -

Considerable legend and myth surrounding Bodhidharma

Yes, we have discussed before how actually extremely little is historically known of Bodhidharma, and that most all of his story is likely a religious myth and hagiographical legend constructed by later generations of the Zen folks, the Kung fu folks, tea folks about their old hero ...

viewtopic.php?p=71830#p71830

No problem, as the stories do express timeless truths, whether the meeting with Emperor Wu, the sitting for 9 years and all the rest, are historical events or not. He is a figure like Moses, also (say the historians) perhaps not a "historical figure"who actually led slaves across the Red Sea in the way told in the legend ... yet standing for Liberation nonetheless.

In a recent post, Dosho Port discusses a new book that seeks to trace Bodhidharma's steps. Well, I appreciate the sentiment of the book and Andy the author, but if you ask me, any "evidence" for who Bodhidharma was, where he went and what he taught, is mostly wishful religious thinking, "could've been's" and "maybe what if's".

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxzen ... /1037.html

However, no problem ... for the Truth of Bodhidharma is in one's heart, and in each moment of Sitting.

Gassho, Jundo