Grass Hut - 12 - "What Do You Mean ... 'Love'"?

[Jundo]

Dear Loving and Loved,

Our topic this time is LOVE ... Chapter 8, "What Do you Mean When You Say Love/Realms Worldly People Love, He Doesn't Love" ...

Has Buddhist Practice had positive effects on how you love? Less clinging? More allowing? More other directed?

This is the point when I must remind folks that Mahayana Practice allows one to be "non-attached" ... not completely "detached" from those one loves. I sometimes say this ... Easier said than done!

Our way is to be "non-attached", not "detached" and "unattached". That means that one can emotionally savor, to the marrow, what is happening in life right now ... and one can commit to that and pour oneself into that ... but just do not cling to that, be willing to let it go. Appreciate this life while it is here (for our self for for those selfs we love) ... and when it is over, release (feeling grief when grief at loss of those we love is called for). Feel all emotions, yet simultaneously see through them as mental theatre, do not be imprisoned or made a puppet, seek to keep moderation and balance (although ... even then, moderation may not always be best when it comes to love).

I think of this quite frequently as our son gets bigger. He is getting older, a time of bitter-sweet happiness. I do not want to be emotionally detached from that, but neither do I want to cling to this moment, try to keep him from growing up, and be unwilling to see it all pass.

Early Buddhism did emphasize emotional detachment more than the later Mahayana. As I said, now we tend not to see our thoughts and emotions (i.e., the "self") so much as the "enemy" as bits of theatre that have to be seen through, handled wisely, not allowed to tie us up. That is a big difference. Same with ordinary life, which is no longer seen as something to "escape", but as something to also be seen through, handled wisely, not allowed to tie us up.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Love it! Thank you Jundo. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#justsat

[Joyo]

Thank you, I will love reading this chapter.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Roland]

Grass Hut - 12 - "What Do You Mean ... 'Love'"?

This is a most beautiful chapter. One of my main 'problems' with Buddhism is the issue of love (and related with that, passion). In my most negative moments I considered it as a philosophy for the severely depressed, rejecting love, passion and attachment after some terrible trauma hit them. This chapter offers a beautiful (revisionist?) interpretation of what non-attachment could mean.

Gassho,
#SatToday
Roland

[Jeremy]

I think this chapter says more about Ben's relationship to Buddha and Buddhism than about love according to Buddha. It looks like a case of what a writer writes when their chosen idol doesn't say what they want them to say. Does the author love Buddha too much?


Gassho,
Jeremy


Sat Today

[Myosha]

I think this chapter says more about Ben's relationship to Buddha and Buddhism than about love according to Buddha. It looks like a case of what a writer writes when their chosen idol doesn't say what they want them to say. Does the author love Buddha too much?


Gassho,
Jeremy


Sat Today

Hello,

Agree. Lack of understanding with attachment to non-attachment can be messy.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Jundo]

I think this chapter says more about Ben's relationship to Buddha and Buddhism than about love according to Buddha. It looks like a case of what a writer writes when their chosen idol doesn't say what they want them to say. Does the author love Buddha too much?


Gassho,
Jeremy


Sat Today

I actually feel this may be the case, and might be an improvement on original Buddhism.

Yes, even the Buddha's Teaching can be improved, much as the original airplane design of the Wright Bros. is now a 777. The Buddha was a man (a very wise man) of 2500 years ago, Dogen was a man (a very wise man) of 800 years ago ... but times change, teachings can adapt and grow.

What do I mean? For much of its history, Buddhism was about dropping emotions, leaving behind family and worldly connections. (Certainly, a fine way to Practice ... to each their own).

The Mahayana became a but more about transcending and moderating emotions, transcending Samsara even amid this world of Samsara. Still, serious Practice (for a variety of historical reasons) remained centered on monastic settings, attenuating or severing family and worldly concerns. The Mahayana felt that they had made an improvement over original (what they called "lesser, Hinayana" Buddhism).

The Japanese priests began to marry, have kids and live in their communities (and in China, Korea and Japan, could be quite well connected with their communities). Japanese priests believed they had an approach better suited to their culture and times then continental Buddhism.

Now, in the West (and especially in Sangha such as ours) we are carrying that further ... truly finding Practice and Liberation right amid our daily lives and worldly responsibilities. Samsara is Nirvana, the Pure Land is Here to the Eye which sees ... For some of us, the family kitchen, children’s nursery, office or factory where we work diligently and hard, the hospital bed, volunteer activity or town hall are all our “monastery” and place of training. There are no barriers. Love, Family, Dharma fits together as one.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Risho]

There are no barriers. Love, Family, Dharma fits together as one.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

Right on! Physics didn't stop with Einstein; science constantly improves and builds upon the previous discoveries made by countless scientists. So just because the Buddha didn't say or do something (because he lived in a completely different culture from ours) doesn't mean that: 1. we need to adhere to certain 'antiquities' that may be completely archaic and/or irrelevant to practice, 2. need not improve upon this practice.

If we fail to do either: make this practice relevant to our lives or change it where it makes sense (not throw away everything of course), then we aren't practicing either. Isn't that also what the Buddha taught when he said to be a light upon ourselves? We need to think for ourselves, not appeal to someone or some tradition for the sake of it.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jeremy]

Jundo & Risho,

Yes, I completely agree. I like the way David Loy refers to Buddha's time as "Iron Age India". It makes 2500 years sound like an awful long time ago!

Has Buddhist Practice had positive effects on how you love? Less clinging? More allowing? More other directed?

For me what I think has resulted from the practice is an increase in empathy... It's interesting that getting to know one's own mind can enhance one's ability to see things from another's point of view.


Gassho,
Jeremy


Sat Today

[Byrne]

Practice has been very good for my marriage. I'm less manipulative than I used to be. Hell, I didn't even realize how manipulative I was in personal relationships. I would get so caught up in my point of view and the "correctness" of it subconsciously expecting something from another person and frustratingly fighting to have it be final. I've found myself a victim of my own good intentions. Practice has helped me recognize and drop those tendencies and give my wife more space to let me know what she is trying to say as well as getting what I need to get across. Even though my wife doesn't practice my newer habits are rubbing off on her and it has been mutually beneficial.

Letting go of what I expect from a loving relationship and focus more on being a loving person without expectations has been a massive shift in perspective. The magic of it is that in reality nothing has changed otherwise, but life is better for sure. I don't think Buddhism as a means to suppress emotions or adhere to an archaic way of living in a different environment has much to offer us in the modern world. Love is a very important emotion and depriving someone of it has very real consequences.

More on that here

http://psychology.about.com/od/historyofpsychology/p/harlow_love.htm

Gassho

Sat Today

[Luciana]

I think this chapter says more about Ben's relationship to Buddha and Buddhism than about love according to Buddha. It looks like a case of what a writer writes when their chosen idol doesn't say what they want them to say. Does the author love Buddha too much?


Gassho,
Jeremy


Sat Today

Yes, I think that it's true that western people are choosing to emphasize parts of the Buddhist tradition that include householders. But this isn't entirely new. As Jundo points out, Mahayana practitioners have become more a part of the 'worldly world' in the past too. I don't think that Ben has made up these ideas.

L.

O
/\ gassho


O
/\ today
==

[Jeremy]

Yes, I think that it's true that western people are choosing to emphasize parts of the Buddhist tradition that include householders. But this isn't entirely new. As Jundo points out, Mahayana practitioners have become more a part of the 'worldly world' in the past too. I don't think that Ben has made up these ideas.
==

I completely agree
Modern Buddhism seems to be feeling its way when it comes to talking about 'love'. I recently heard someone ask a Buddhist nun in one of the Tibetan traditions "What does Buddhism say about love?" The response was quite hesitant, but went on to talk about compassion rather than address the concept of 'love' directly.


Gassho,
Jeremy


Sat Today

[Jishin]

Has Buddhist Practice had positive effects on how you love? Less clinging? More allowing? More other directed?


SatToday

What are positive effects on how you love? Less clinging? More allowing? More other directed?

It is what are positive effects on how you love. It is what is less clinging. It is what is more allowing. It is what is more other directed.

What is love? It is love. Just this.

This is Buddhist Practice.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ed]

"LET GO
OR BE DRAGGED."

unknown

[BrianW]

As Jundo says "Non-attached....easier said than done." As discussed in the chapter, such experience of love comes in moments. Perhaps for most of us, something we experience, but to be totally non-attached is beyond our grasp.

Gassho,
Jisen/BrianW