9/7 - Opening Pandora's Box p.53

[Fuken]

Yes, this strikes me as another important semantic point where Buddhism is concerned.
"Dukkha" as it is used in Buddhism from the Sanskrit has, I think, a deeper philosophical meaning than simply "suffering", as it is often rendered in English.

Sometimes I think so, but mostly I don't think it is really that big of a deal. The Indians were and remain a pretty colorful people philosophical. I think the Chinese likely did not have a direct translation for some concepts too. But I don't think it is important enough to get wrapped around the axle on as long as you understand the basics.

To understand and realize the nature of Dukkha clearly as it exists in us is quite a step. And isn't realizing its nature in effortless Zazen enough?

I think this may very from person to person. Sometimes it takes sompthing extra for people to get there.

Can Dukkha really be extinguised or non-created/uncreated by effort?

Better question might be, dose Dukkha really exist?

Isn't effort itself Dukkha by nature? Was Dogen Zenji wrong?

I don't think so on both accounts. I have heard that Dukkha was caused by our attachment to our desires.
I think Dogen said make grate effort in practice like trying to put a fire out on your head.

Or maybe certain efforts are not of the nature of Dukkha?

Right Effort:?:

Jainism takes allot more effort. Zazen is much less of a hassle.

Take care,
Jordan

[Gregor]

Harry,

Good point about natural and instinctive Zazen. I think your perspective on this is very much intune with Nishijima Roshi's philosophy of action.

You may be touching on the path where where Right Effort, merges with Right Action. As we cultivate one step on the eightfold path, we cultivate the rest.

As with all things --- No Gaps exist.

Thanks,

Greg

[Fuken]

When effort is disentangled from a *desired* result is it still really 'effort' as we generally understand it? Or might it better be described as simply "Action"?

If your head was on fire, and you had to put it out, would putting it out be a sustained, supported effort with thoughts of 'no fire'... or would you naturally, instinctively just try to put it out?

Harry.
I may not be so skillful with words, but I think that effort is usually an action/ or even inaction (that being a type of action.) Generally I try not to worry about the words but just the intent of the words. Action and effort do pretty much the same thing for me.

As for the head on fire, I think that it is an expression meant to encourage effort in practice and that is all. I don't see an end to practice for me until I am feeding worms, and then I will just be practicing feeding worms.

Take care,
Jordan

[Fuken]

Harry,
Funny thing about perspective,
It is all in the way you look at it :!: :lol:

Take care,
Jordan

[Keishin]

Opening Pandora's Box

Pandora's Box
As I remember the story, Hope was the last thing to come out of the box and as I remember Hope was presented as quite wonderful. So wonderful, in fact, it made up for all the other things which were
"evils that rushed eagerly from the jar in a black stinking cloud like pestilent insects - sickness and suffering, hatred and jealousy and greed, and all the other cruel things that freeze the heart and bring on old age."
So if the jar (or box) was filled with all things evil--then Hope is an evil also, no?

I had a zen teacher who explained this very clearly, in this way: over the entrance to Hades (hell--Dante's Inferno), is the inscription "Give up all Hope, ye who enter here." My teacher explained that this inscription was not so much to strike fear into the heart of one entering into the hell realm, but was an instruction. Many years later,
at a dharma talk given by Egyoku Roshi (ZCLA) she asked/told those of us sitting in sesshin: where were we willing to go to save all sentient beings? She told us most decidedly there wouldn't be much need for bodhisattvas in heaven--it would be hell where we would be needed.
Well, if that's where I find myself, Rev. Bob McNeil's advice to 'give up all hope' is the approach.

In thinking deeply about hope I found that under the guise and trappings of cultural well wishes, it really is a way to not be satisfied with whatever is perceived to be the current state of being--it is a subtle, or maybe not so subtle way to want things different. I'm not saying I've done away with it's use as a social vehicle of good will
but I prefer faith, to hope.

I don't think Faith was any part of Pandora's Box (or jar).

What I got from this chapter: sit long enough and it will all emerge--everything about you, the obvious and the hidden, the things you keep under lock and key, the locked things with the key missing: zazen is the skeleton key which opens it. From my experiences: there are times I have had emotions I had no name for, I could not tell you where they came from or what they were about--most likely a pre-verbal stage of infancy--who knows? And this is where I came to an understanding that I didn't need to know. I just needed to allow, I needed to not turn away or move on from whatevertheheck it was.
From Joko Beck's analogy, I can't begin to know how far along I am in this 'unpacking' of Pandora's Box. Analogies always fail, ultimately, but they sure are handy and useful and helpful.
I appreciated Joko's warning that practice will transform your life, but that transformation does not come without a price: "Don't practice until you feel there is nothing else you can do. Instead, step up your surfing or your physics or your music. If that satisfies you, do it. Don't practice unless you feel you must....To do Zen practice, we have to desire a certain kind of a life...it's a life in which our vows override our ordinary personal considerations..."
So here we are at vows--and in another forum there's a collection started of different translations of the Four Great Vows...I'd like to think that for every evil in Pandora's Box, there is a vow to match it!
gassho
keishin

[Bansho]

Hi Greg,

As we cultivate one step on the eightfold path, we cultivate the rest.

Yes, very true, it's not a linear succession of steps, but rather each step contains or is intimately connected with all others. To paraphrase Shakyamuni Buddha as he says in the following Sutta, Zazen (noted below as 'right concentration') is the complete path.

Accessories of concentration

005.02. Bhikkhus, these seven are the accessories of concentration. What seven?

Right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort and right mindfulness. Bhikkhus, when the mind's one pointedness is accessed with these seven factors, it is called the noble right concentration, with means and accessories.

Source: http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta ... ggo-e.html

Gassho
Kenneth

[Jundo]

Hey Guys,

This chapter really led to some interesting comments. A few that especially resonated for me ...

Keishin wrote:

What I got from this chapter: sit long enough and it will all emerge--everything about you, the obvious and the hidden, the things you keep under lock and key, the locked things with the key missing: zazen is the skeleton key which opens it. From my experiences: there are times I have had emotions I had no name for, I could not tell you where they came from or what they were about--most likely a pre-verbal stage of infancy--who knows? And this is where I came to an understanding that I didn't need to know. I just needed to allow, I needed to not turn away or move on from whatevertheheck it was.

Yes, we live with it all. I had a friend, a Zen practitioner, who was a victim of child abuse. Images came back to her in her Zazen. Yet, she also learned to drop much of the anger, to accept the scars. She allowed.

On that same theme, Justin wrote:

Joko goes somewhere I don't really understand...

Quote:
We may be anxious, we may have disturbing thoughts, but our wall keeps us unaware of that.


What? I thought my Ego was that which fooled me into thinking that my emotions & thoughts were real. How does my sense of self prevent me from recognizing my emotions or thoughts? Does she perhaps mean that my Ego prevents me from recognizing them as illusory, or is she saying something else?

I would say that our ego both creates illusory emotions and thoughts, then buries the most painful ones (like the images of child abuse ... both illusory and 100% horribly REAL, by the way). In turn, our Zen practice lets us uncover painful emotions and thought, recognize them as illusory, also recognize them as real (cause, after all, they are our life ... if my life is a dream, it is still my only dream), and allows us to embrace and accept the pain. All at once.

On the subject of the Eightfold Path, Kenneth wrote:

Yes, very true, it's not a linear succession of steps, but rather each step contains or is intimately connected with all others. To paraphrase Shakyamuni Buddha as he says in the following Sutta, Zazen (noted below as 'right concentration') is the complete path.

In Dogen's view, right thoughts, right livelihood, right speech etc. all facilitate --and-- are swallowed whole by our Zazen. Zazen is all those things in and of itself, plus creates a mindset to let us live in such way. Conversely, living in a manner nurturing right thoughts, right livelihood, right speech etc. nurtures our Zazen. So, not only is it a two way street, but each one arises from the others, aids the others and -is- the others. However, from our Zen perspective, Zazen sits at the centerpoint. Something like that.

In this light, Greg wrote:

I like to consider the Eightfold Path, as a good tool in leading a Buddhist life, it helps me live with more purpose and direction. Both things that I generally lack, perhaps the fact that I struggle with these things is the very reason I gravitate towards my particular view. Personally, cultivation of the Eightfold path has not been source of suffering or dissatisfaction. It has been an encouraging and helpful perspective, even as I fall short of it.

I think that this is a fine way to practice. as long as you keep in mind (in trying to live according to the Eightfold path, follow the Precepts, sit Zazen every single day, etc.) that you must "be diligent, be careful ... but also know that you will not always be diligent and careful ... yet also know that there is no need to be diligent and careful."

I think that there is no conflict at all between that and what Greg wrote;;

I do agree that being at 100%, at all times is an unreasonable goal. I think the ups and downs are a natural pattern. But, I am trying to be honest with myself about what kind of effort I am putting in, and lately I think it has been lacking, So I'm refocusing on being deliberate with each action. Yes, I will fall short, but far less so than if I have no focus and don't hold myself accountable for my shortcomings.

Be diligent and careful! Be mindful! Be deliberate!

As you are going to nursing school, it is a great philosophy for a medical practitioner to have.

That ties in with what CD wrote:

Having now read the chapter, the one part that was really right on for me was right at the end - paraphrased roughly as realizing that we're all messed up, we're all struggling, though with different parts of it. That was a big breakthrough for me, once upon a time, and still is sometimes. Realizing that we're all just doing the best we can.

This relates to the previous chapter (i think it was in there) for me - about forgiving ourselves. It was back there sometime, i'm sure - accepting that we have always been and always will be human. One of the people I respect most once gave me the compliment of appreciating my abiltity to forgive myself - which I don't always do exceptionally well - and it made me make a stronger effort to continue to do so.

I think the key on that one, to echo Gregor, is Right Effort. Much easier to forgive yourself if you were a) making an effort, and b) doing your best, which isn't always your ABSOLUTE best, but the best you can do right then with all the other stuff whirling around in your personal samsara.

Harry wrote:

Its interesting that Nishijima Roshi refers to Buddhism as a "Religion of Action" and not as a "Religion of Effort".

When effort is disentangled from a *desired* result is it still really 'effort' as we generally understand it? Or might it better be described as simply "Action"?

I not sure if I get the point. Nishijima points out that, according to Dogen, we must have a 'Will to the Truth' in pursuing our Zen Practice. So, we must make effort, for example, to drag ourselves to the Zafu each day. Folks, be ambitious (for the Truth!)!

And as for Zen as a 'Religion of Action', we must make choices, efforts and have desires in order to live. Living is both choosing and acting, moving and sitting still. However, what is special about the Zen part of it is that, as we make choices and have likes and dislikes we simultaneously (as another side of the single coin) drop likes and dislikes, we make effort knowing that there is no place ultimately 'to go', we have desires without getting caught in attachments if things do not go as we wish. So, we are moving and standing still at the same time, and without conflict between the seemingly opposite simultaneous perspectives. I understand it this way.

Remember that Shakyamuni, all the Zen Patriarchs, Hakuin, Dogen ,,, these were not exactly lazy, lay about guys. They made plans, they realized projects, they got things done. (The Zen part, which other non-Zen 'movers and shakes' may not be able to realize, is that simultaneously there is no loss, no gain, nothing to achieve, nothing lasting ... . The Zen guys knew how to build a monastery, then stop and be captivated by a single blade of grass. They also knew that, whether you make some earth shattering historical achievement, or just tend to the flowers in your garden, or raising kids, or just tend to a small task at hand ... it is all the same thing if done mindfully).

On another mentioned topic, I see 'Dukkha' as dissatisfaction with how the world/life 'is' versus how we wish or dream that the world/life 'should be'. The Buddha, Dogen, etc., obviously all had 'goals'. yet seemed to embrace the way things turned out when not quite how they thought it 'should be'. That's why goalless, effortless, non-achieving, all embracing 'just sitting' Zazen is such a good medicine for Dukkha!

Harry asked:

BTW, does being free of suffering strike anyone as a realistic concept?

Yes. When the world 'as it is' is in harmony with your view of the world 'as it should be' by dropping all resistance. This is true even as, on that other level that is not-even-two, there is a lot about this world and life you want to fix.

Harry also said:

... these perceived "Right Efforts" are often informed wholly by idealistic thinking and judgments... "Doing our best in the present moment for ourselves/others" seems more sensible.

I agree with this. There are a few areas where we can clearly see that choosing a certain action will drive our life right over a cliff (e.g., starting a drug habit, having an affair, robbing a bank). But, in between, few hard and fast rules about what is 'right effort'. Probably a general adomination to be 'diligent and careful' is the best that can be done.

And this comment by Kenneth was so gosh darn beautiful ...

Hi everyone,

One of the more notable things which has changed in my life through my practice is how I’ve come to perceive thinking and sensations. They‘ve somehow become suspect. No, not in the sense that they’re unreal, but I simply don’t attach as much weight to them as I used to. Nothing dramatic. They’re wonderful and necessary for our lives, but they don’t constitute our entire lives. It’s not really knowledge (although I suppose I’ve read argumentation along those lines before in one form or another), but more so a matter of seeing. As such, it’s not something I can simply forget and I think in that sense I’ve opened Pandora’s box. Theres no going back. Of course, 'seeing' isn’t an end in and of itself, it must manifest itself in my behavior. In relation to my Zazen, it means I simply do it every day whether I want to or don’t want to, whether I’m tired or anxious, whether it’s to hot or too cold, etc. I recognize these thoughts and feelings in myself and they’re OK, but I don’t let them affect my behavior. However, if I had to miss a day of Zazen – and I’m sure that will be the case sooner or later – that would be OK too. Recently my wife celebrated her 40th birthday and I told her I wouldn’t sit that day, but rather just be there for her and not get in the way of any other plans we may have. No big deal. As it turns out, we did have some spare time that day, some of which she wanted for herself, so I was able to sit. Also no big deal.

Anyway, Gassho for all of that. Jundo

PS- This late entry comment from Harry ...

Is Zazen then one pointedness?... or no pointedness?

No pointedness. But I think that we also train in one pointed action, such as in mindful, Oryoki eating and such. Both are part of Zen's vast toolbelt of mental tricks. I think.

[Bansho]

Dear Harry,

The Buddha taught lots of things in lots of different ways.

Definitely - but he never spoke about Hinayana or Mahayana. :wink:

Gassho
Kenneth