8/3 - The Fire of Attention p.31

[Jundo]

May I have your ATTENTION please ...

The Fire of Attention ...

Joko's Rinzai-esque side comes out a bit with the hot fires and the sharp, burning swords and the 'full blaze' of a flaming Sesshin.

While Soto-istic sitting can seem soft and easy in comparison, rest assured that we burn just as brightly and cut just as sharply ... Soft water's flow will wash away the hardest rocks, sometimes slowly and sometimes in a flash.

Joke quotes Master Huang Po, "On no account make a distinction between the Absolute and the sentient world." I might restate it as, "On no account make a distinction between the world without distinctions and the world with distinctions. Then learn to distinguish too the world of with-without."

It is nothing more than parking your car, putting on your clothes, taking a walk.

But the way we perceive each of those acts can be worlds apart.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

CORRECTION: You know, when I woke up this morning, I read the above again and thought I should correct myself. Dogen himself could be quite hard nosed in style and language, with talk of fire and burning swords and the like rather often. So, I fell into something of a stereotype about Rinzai/Soto. I would say, however, that the Rinzai folks talks like that more than Soto folks.

[wills]

A zendo (meditation hall) is not a place for bliss and relaxation, but a furnace room for the combustion of our egoistic delusions. What tools do we need to use? Only one. We've all heard of it, yet we use it very seldom. It's called attention.

Serendipity! This showed up in the reading last night and also this morning in my email. The stars are aligned but what does it mean? (At my last retreat my samu period assignment was sifting horse shit from the compost pile. Probably same meaning!)

The email reference was focusing on the attention part. How do we develop Zen attention? "Attention moves in a field of awareness."

Wasn't it our friend Dogen that suggested we practice as if our hair was on fire? I often feel very hot during zazen. Even when I see those around me reaching for blankets or wearing stocking caps. I prefer it cold when I sit because I feel internal fires.

Got to run to Farmers Market but there is lots of juicy stuff here.

[Al]

This chapter reminded me of this favorite quote:

“When you do something, you should burn yourself up completely, like a good bonfire, leaving no trace of yourself.”
- Shunryu Suzuki

It also reminded me of the burning in my shoulders when I sit.

[Jundo]

Yeah, when I said Soto people don't talk like that, with all those fire references ... I was full of hot air!

A Flaming Gassho, Jundo

[paige]

Aw, Dogen was a pussycat compared to Lin Ji! Ok, not really.

I liked the bit (on page 34)

We don't like to think of ourselves as just physical beings, yet the whole transformation of sitting is physical. It's not some miraculous thing that happens in our head.

which I suppose is something that the Rinzai and Soto practitioners can agree on.

I think that the message that becoming "dispassionate and fundamentally unaffected" isn't the same as being cold and unfeeling could have been expanded upon. Because I think that the idea of burning up our selves, our thoughts and our feelings is a very frightening idea for many people. That the "incomplete burning" that Joko speaks of at the end of the chapter isn't only a case of secretly enjoying our dramas, but also that, quite understandably, being scared to death of what will happen to us if we really did let go completely.

PS - I don't drink, but I'm suddenly incredibly tempted to go to a bar and ask for a "flaming Gassho."

[Justin]

I don't drink, but I'm suddenly incredibly tempted to go to a bar and ask for a "flaming Gassho."

My 21st birthday is this coming Wednesday. I'll have to invent this drink and have one (only one! it's a moderate 21st I'm celebrating :wink: ...) with a toast to the sangha.

I've read this section, but it hasn't really sunk in. I need to re-read it tomorrow, at which point I'm sure I'll have all sorts of questions.

Gassho, friends.

[Bansho]

I read the chapter a few times, prepared my posting over the course of a few days, kept changing it, etc. and was waiting for Jundo to start the thread so I could finally post it. Finally, the moment arrived and -- guess what -- I had somehow skipped this chapter and read the next one!!! :roll: So much for my own fire of attention. ops: While being mindful, paying attention, etc. sounds so simple, it really is extremely difficult to do it all the time. I catch myself being on auto-pilot much more often than I'd like to be. It's quite tricky. Sometimes when I try to make a point to be mindful, I end up focusing too much on the idea of being mindful and blending out everything else, which of course is pretty much the exact opposite of really paying attention.

Gassho
Kenneth

[Justin]

I actually had to read this section three times before I felt like I really began to understand what Joko was saying. I've cobbled this little "remix" together from various parts of this section, and it's been an aid in my understanding:

It's extremely important to remember that the main purpose of doing sesshin is this burning out of thoughts by the fire of attention, so that our lives can be dispassionate and fundamentally unaffected by outward circumstances. If we don't sit regularly then we can't comprehend that how we wash our car or how we deal with our supervisor is absolutely our practice. There is no special time or place for great realization. It's nothing more than parking your car, putting on clothes, taking a walk. But if we are emotionally attached to the circumstances we're not going to realize that, and we will be unable to burn up each circumstance as we encounter it.

Putting the points together like this made this much clearer for me.

I also wanted to echo something Paige brought up a few posts ago:

I think that the message that becoming "dispassionate and fundamentally unaffected" isn't the same as being cold and unfeeling could have been expanded upon.

I certainly would've appreciation some wisdom on the topic.

I've been facing (well-meaning) questions from loved ones lately about the aims of my practice. Some have done a bit of research and are asking me if I'm essentially aiming to become some sort of self-extinguished Zen robot. I've struggled to explain that practice is about extinguishing emotional attachments, but all they've read about the "destruction of the Self" seems to shake them up a bit; my reading is shallow enough and my practice new enough that I never really know where to take the conversation form there.

I look forward to further discussion!

Gassho.

[Jundo]

Hi Justin,

Thanks for the remix. It is a good one. Yes, "to be dispassionate and fundamentally unaffected" is not the same as being "cold and unfeeling" or "a robot." It is more about being fully comfortable in one's skin, going with the flow wherever it may lead, able to laugh when we laugh and cry when we cry, without resistance to events ... being so much embracing of life and the world that the hard borders between our self and the world soften, or disappear. We feel all the human emotions, but learn to moderate and avoid those that are harmful to ourselves and to others (e.g., love is good, clinging love probably not so good).

But as Dogen wrote in today's section of Fukanzazengi, you don't get the point really by reading some cliches (like the above) written by some fool. He described it as "practice-experience", i.e., you need to experience this all for yourself within your Zazen. It is very much like swimming by jumping in a cold pool and swimming by reading a book about swimming. The books and the coaching just help you find your own stride and stroke.

Got the image?

That being said, what do you do with your family and friends to explain your practice?? Well, in my case, I did not need to do much. After I had been practicing for awhile, they noticed changes is me that they thought good. When other people would get worked up about situations or act in negative ways, I was always pretty peaceful and level headed. They told me that I seemed more caring and at peace with myself (you should have known me when I was an A-type personality corporate lawyer about 20 years ago).

Finally, they found that I was "just the same old guy", in the meaning that I was not a robot, not unemotional or "detached" from relationships and my family, not hanging around airports raising money dressed in a bedsheet, not doing anything really different from before ... but yet different from before.

My own mother began to take an interest, and came to sittings once in a long while. By the end of her life, when she had cancer, she turned in part to Buddhist philosophy to go through that. She eventually asked me to conduct her funeral in a Buddhist way (and I did a kind of very personal Buddhist funeral for her).

The way to tell people about what we Practice is just to live your life, be their friend and son. I think.

Gassho, Jundo

[wills]

Yes, "to be dispassionate and fundamentally unaffected" is not the same as being "cold and unfeeling" or "a robot." It is more about being fully comfortable in one's skin, going with the flow wherever it may lead, able to laugh when we laugh and cry when we cry, without resistance to events ... being so much embracing of life and the world that the hard borders between our self and the world soften, or disappear. We feel all the human emotions, but learn to moderate and avoid those that are harmful to ourselves and to others (e.g., love is good, clinging love probably not so good).

Thank you for this clear explanation of "to be dispassionate and fundamentally unaffected".

[Justin]

live your life, be their friend and son. I think.

Gassho.

[Gregor]

The topic of this chapter really appeals to me. I think the idea of "burning myself away" connects with me right now. Personally the concept is a strong tool in helping me be more selfless and in touch with the larger reality that is out "there".

I'll turn to this while at work or sitting Zazen, it helps to snap myself right back to reality and away from my little deluded inner dialogue.

Jundo & Justin -- thanks so much for talking about how to approach explaining the practice to family members. I have to agree, the changes that they are witnessing in me are perhaps the strongest testaments I can give. I'm still me of course, just the real me more often and less the angry all the time, anxiety stricken me, or the unhappy me.

The last two years has been a real Joy and wonderful process, I'm so glad it only took me twenty-five years to find the Dharma. I read a great quote by Dogen Zenji today,

There is no beginning to practice nor end to enlightenment; There is no beginning to enlightenment nor end to practice.

It does a nice job of explaining the whole process. Master Dogen does a great job of explaining things in general. I'm really glad to be on this path --- Thanks much Jundo - I came to Treeleaf because I could not find a Sangha, not really sure if I "wanted to do Zen", now I feel like I've found my home in this practice.

Enough talk, time to sit!

Gassho,

Greg

[Keishin]

the fire of attention

In this chapter Joko tells us "The truth is not somewhere else."
This is what I have distilled from the reading:
To encounter the truth (living, present, reality) is to find the center (balanced mind/body) which, when balanced can attend to/ be aware of circumstances (without 'wasting' energy dressing up circumstances in mentally constructed costumes, and then 'waste' more energy responding to the costumed circumstances).
Out of the encounter/meeting of balanced body/mind awareness/attention and reality comes ability to act adequately to the circumstance.
Thus, as Nishijima Roshi tells us, Buddhism is a religion of action.

To find the center and encounter the truth Joko tells us it is important to practice zazen for an adequate amount of time daily.

Ain't that the truut!

While I found her fire metaphor very compelling, it greatly helped me to get rid of all the fire/burning analogy business and just look at what she was talking about. I definitely 'burn' while on the zafu and plenty of other places too--(menopause?)

(I would also like to make comment on family members' responses to the practice of buddhism, but will do so on the community forum 'I'm not in a cult' posting).

[Jundo]

Re: the fire of attention

In this chapter Joko tells us "...
To encounter the truth (living, present, reality) is to find the center (balanced mind/body) which, when balanced can attend to/ be aware of circumstances (without 'wasting' energy dressing up circumstances in mentally constructed costumes, and then 'waste' more energy responding to the costumed circumstances).
Out of the encounter/meeting of balanced body/mind awareness/attention and reality comes ability to act adequately to the circumstance.
Thus, as Nishijima Roshi tells us, Buddhism is a religion of action.

I would say that we can NEVER act inadequately to circumstances. How we act is just how we act. Of course, sometimes we act with a mind that is disturbed, angry, suffering, distracted, cluttered, off balance ... and sometimes we act with a mind that is still, centered, calm, peaceful, focused, clear, balanced. While our practice is about that balanced mind, I would certainly hesitate to call any part of life 'inadequate' ... even the parts we think are not adequate.

I would say the same about our "wasting energy." I would say that our practice is partly a recognition that we --cannot-- "waste" energy (a recognition of "no loss, no gain" ... even, if you will, as we take the train and turn of the lights to conserve energy). But, even while we cannot waste anything in life, there are certainly times when people use a lot of mental energy to create thoughts that tangle up their experience of the world. "Conserving energy" is about getting back to a kind of mental simplicity, I think.

Even thinking that we must "burn up" our thoughts and emotions on the Zafu needs to be handled with care, I believe. No part of our life is to be rejected or pushed away ... as such a term as "burn up" maybe implies a little. That is true even as we do, in fact, "burn up" thoughts and emotions on the Zafu.

Nothing is a waste or inadequate ... even the inadequate parts of life.

(I hope this discussion has not been an inadequate waste of energy.)

Gassho, Jundo