Hi,
A few things ...
Justin wrote
My thinking on this [pun unavoidable] is that we drop different thoughts at different times in Practice, sometimes more than at other times, in various combinations, perhaps all thoughts ultimately ... and each offers its own unique, wonderful vantage point on reality. For example, sometimes we drop most of the value judgments (good/bad, beautiful/ugly, pleasant/unpleasant etc.) and the world is, as Joko says: things being as they are.
Other times, we may drop our sense of self/not self, and then there is no "I" to resist a world of "not I". We can drop our categorizing, labeling, sorting thoughts that cut up and separate the world (including ourselves) into little pieces such that a sense of wholeness may be lost.
Or, sometimes we may see that each separate object is a universe unto itself, perfectly itself just as it is ... and so are we.
I sometimes refer to Zazen as a "toolbelt", because it is not just one experience, but infinite vantage points and experiences. All are true, simultaneously, in their own way ... thus you exist and you do not exist at all, thus war is bad and war is just war, thus there are no broken pieces in conflict so not even war ... etc etc
Wills wrote:
Well, we realize such freedom in our Practice that it could be said to be beyond morality ... e.g., right this moment, I am free to take a human life or not, steal or not, be abusive or not. This is because part of our practice does involve dropping concepts such as good/bad, peaceful/violent, killer/killed, life/death ... you name it, WE DROP IT! That freedom can lead people in directions that are, potentially, destructive to other persons around them and destructive to themselves.
Thus, the Precepts serve to keep us on the path of balanced living.
Keishin wrote:
Yes. There is no "you," now "you" should go sit.
Sitting is without object or intent and cannot be done "wrong". Now, take great care so that it is just right!
On this last point, it is like meticulously washing the windows of the monastery ... working diligently ... all the while dropping all thought of "clean" or "dirty", dropping all thought of something to achieve.
No contradiction, not one. Despite the contradictions.
Excuse the late night ramblings. Off to bed.
Gassho, Jundo
A few things ...
Justin wrote
I had the same fuzzy troubles with Joko's distinction between "technical thoughts" and those thoughts that get in the way of reality a few sections back. I suppose I'm asking where we draw the line between what sorts of thoughts are "ok" and what sort need to be "dropped away."
Any suggestions on these questions would be invaluable to my practice.
Gassho.
justin
Any suggestions on these questions would be invaluable to my practice.
Gassho.
justin
Other times, we may drop our sense of self/not self, and then there is no "I" to resist a world of "not I". We can drop our categorizing, labeling, sorting thoughts that cut up and separate the world (including ourselves) into little pieces such that a sense of wholeness may be lost.
Or, sometimes we may see that each separate object is a universe unto itself, perfectly itself just as it is ... and so are we.
I sometimes refer to Zazen as a "toolbelt", because it is not just one experience, but infinite vantage points and experiences. All are true, simultaneously, in their own way ... thus you exist and you do not exist at all, thus war is bad and war is just war, thus there are no broken pieces in conflict so not even war ... etc etc
Wills wrote:
This is sort of a "de-moralification" of our experience. There is no reason other than fear for our constant categorization of everything as moral or immoral or any of the aforementioned pairs of judgments. Resting in things being as they are empowers Right Action. Just about everything else gets in the way. What I call de-moralification is not a way to escape responsibility and justify negative karmic action nor is a reason to become evangelical about some self-proscribed moral high ground.
The term moral is so loaded. It is probably more helpful to talk about it like Jundo does by using terms like "wild/harmonious, chaotic/orderly, beautiful/ugly, pleasant/unpleasant/ good/bad etc."
The term moral is so loaded. It is probably more helpful to talk about it like Jundo does by using terms like "wild/harmonious, chaotic/orderly, beautiful/ugly, pleasant/unpleasant/ good/bad etc."
Thus, the Precepts serve to keep us on the path of balanced living.
Keishin wrote:
But back to Joko, who in the last 4 paragraphs of this chapter seems to do so many twists and turns and flips off the high dive, that I'm going to have to see the slo mo replay to follow it...and then she tells me there is no I, and never was one, only an illusion, that there isn't even an I to dissolve because there was nothing there to begin with...
Well gosh darn well.... what the hell... well....
and she closes with:
"Still, when we sit well, everything else takes care of itself. So whether we have been sitting five years or twenty years or are just beginning, it is important to sit with great, meticulous care." (!!!!!)
Well gosh darn well.... what the hell... well....
and she closes with:
"Still, when we sit well, everything else takes care of itself. So whether we have been sitting five years or twenty years or are just beginning, it is important to sit with great, meticulous care." (!!!!!)
Sitting is without object or intent and cannot be done "wrong". Now, take great care so that it is just right!
On this last point, it is like meticulously washing the windows of the monastery ... working diligently ... all the while dropping all thought of "clean" or "dirty", dropping all thought of something to achieve.
No contradiction, not one. Despite the contradictions.
Excuse the late night ramblings. Off to bed.
Gassho, Jundo
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