3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

[Shohei]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hi all
A bit late posting but i have a very good excuse! (ill share later)

Nothing to profound from me, I just read the chapter and i always end up smiling as i read!!

I'll spare highlighting comments and just say what formed from reading it. Well ill spare you that too!

Separating the various things in our mind causes unnecessary strife. The talk about the blue jay makes perfect sense to me. Actually I really relate to the way Suzuki Roshi speaks about things and the examples etc he uses to illustrate the point are right up my ally. works well for me. I really do need to listen more to the scolding when I hear some one getting one, too often and too easily i think "Whew, not me". ops:

Gassho Shohei

[Tb]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hi.

Have been thinking about light and dark, one and many, ri and ji, san and do, independent and interrelated. The words sound like pairs of opposites and it takes some effort to break the habit of "either one or the other" and accept the possibility of "both one and the other". Suzuki describes his words as double-edged swords that cut both ways (forward and backward) at the same time.

Not just "both one and the other" but something "more"?

I read somewhere that nonduality is the middle path between something and its opposite. And this creates the other possibility "neither one nor the other"; neither light nor dark, neither ri nor ji... Somehow this seems to make sense in terms of "acceptance without judgement."

Also, I wonder sometimes if this poem (and Suzuki's comments) and the apparent contradictions (in the way words are used) are aiming to "break" your small mind. Perhaps the book is one very long koan.

JohnH :?

yes.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[KellyRok]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hello all,

Haven't posted yet about the book...felt outside of my self last week. At any rate, I think I got my groove back :lol:

Dirk - I'm with you on the scolding part...no one likes to be scolded, but if we just take the time to listen and learn from the lesson that is given in the scolding (whether to us, or to someone else) that's when true practice begins...or maybe simply continues.

I truly loved the part: "We should be alert enough to hear the meaning behind the words...We should realize something more than what is said."

Words can be so empty sometimes...it's what isn't said that teaches us the most. At least this seems to be true for me.

Wonderful discussions - thank you to all who provide such thought-provoking ideas and opinions!

Gassho,
Kelly (Jinmei)

[John]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Finding it hard to think of anythiing to say about this book. Talk seems so superfluous.

When we include everything as ourselves there is nothing with which to compare ourselves. If there is only one thing, how can you compare anything to it?

Am recently noticing I don't compare myself with others as much as I used to. In fact I am coming more and more to appreciate and enjoy the gifts and talents of others, rather than feeling envious of them. I love the insights and clear writing of contributors to this forum, for instance. This is one fruit of practice worth having. It also saves me from the mental disturbance caused by envy.

Gassho,
Doshin

[Eika]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Finding it hard to think of anythiing to say about this book. Talk seems so superfluous.

When we include everything as ourselves there is nothing with which to compare ourselves. If there is only one thing, how can you compare anything to it?

Am recently noticing I don't compare myself with others as much as I used to. In fact I am coming more and more to appreciate and enjoy the gifts and talents of others, rather than feeling envious of them. I love the insights and clear writing of contributors to this forum, for instance. This is one fruit of practice worth having. It also saves me from the mental disturbance caused by envy.

Gassho,
Doshin

Just catching up to this week's reading today.

I couldn't agree with John more. I, too, notice that I am spontaneously happy when others are happy and that my envy of others has decreased significantly.

Also, somehow now all things build me up. The good and the bad are on one "channel" an ego-boost or a drag, but the other channel is now in plain sight that takes all of it with the smile of acceptance and even gratitude. p. 65: "The more you practice zazen, the more you will be able to accept something as your own, whatever it is." "There is nothing to compare. You are just you.

I find it a compelling verification of Buddhist teachings that these various texts are merging as my meager understanding of them increases. The Sandokai, the Heart Sutra, Fukanzazengi, Bendowa, etc are all the same teaching . . . the pointing at the moon.

Peace and gassho,
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hello all,

I haven’t been able to get to Treeleaf very much this week as my laptop hard drive had bad sectors on it and had to be replaced. Thus, I’m a bit late in my comments. In any event, the statement "Everything is within our mind” prompted me to think of the bio-psychological nature of perception. In a literal sense, our perceptions (e.g., images) are in fact in our mind, despite the fact we perceive them as being outside of ourselves. Thus, when looking at a bird, the image of the bird is, in fact, quite literally within the brain.

Some details about this process have some intriguing implications. Visual information goes from the thalamus to the visual cortex, but then cycles back again. This cycling occurs at about 40 times per second. It is my understanding that during times of rest this cycling can slow down, which leads me do wonder if the relaxation that happens in zazen causes a slowing down of the cycling and may explain some of the blips and unusual occurrences that sometime happen during mediation. I know this is a much different take on “Everything is within our mind” and not what Suzuki Roshi had intended, but my mind took it on a bit of a detour on this idea. (Link below with more details concerning perception and the brain.)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CEFDB1439F932A15750C0A963958260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=all

Gassho,
BrianW

[jrh001]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

I find it a compelling verification of Buddhist teachings that these various texts are merging as my meager understanding of them increases. The Sandokai, the Heart Sutra, Fukanzazengi, Bendowa, etc are all the same teaching . . . the pointing at the moon.

Hi Bill,

I've only read the first two but have also begun to see the texts "merging". I'd also add that Trust in the Heart by Sengcan (3rd Chinese Ancestor) has similarities with the Sandokai. It was written after the Heart Sutra and before the Sandokai.

I suppose that's what lineage is all about - the undistorted message is transmitted through time and space.

JohnH

(Link to two translations of Trust in the Heart: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfj5swv9_34577zjrhd)

[Eika]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

I've only read the first two but have also begun to see the texts "merging". I'd also add that Trust in the Heart by Sengcan (3rd Chinese Ancestor) has similarities with the Sandokai. It was written after the Heart Sutra and before the Sandokai.

I suppose that's what lineage is all about - the undistorted message is transmitted through time and space.

JohnH

(Link to two translations of Trust in the Heart: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfj5swv9_34577zjrhd)

Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of this poem.

Bill

[John]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of this poem.

Bill, I kept coming across quotes from it so often I bought a commentary, and it is quite good:

http://www.amazon.com/Trust-Mind-Rebell ... 297&sr=8-2

Gassho,
Doshin

[Jundo]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

I've only read the first two but have also begun to see the texts "merging". I'd also add that Trust in the Heart by Sengcan (3rd Chinese Ancestor) has similarities with the Sandokai. It was written after the Heart Sutra and before the Sandokai.

I suppose that's what lineage is all about - the undistorted message is transmitted through time and space.

JohnH

(Link to two translations of Trust in the Heart: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfj5swv9_34577zjrhd)

Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of this poem.

Bill

Hey Bill,

Pardon me for citing Wiki, but the hour is late. The Xin Xin Ming is one of the biggies, right up there with what we are reading, the Heart Sutra and a few others of that ilk ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming

Here is a version I like (about not having "likes" and "dislikes") ...

The Way of the supreme is not difficult,

If only people will give up preferences.

Like not, dislike not.

Be illuminated.

If you are off by a millimeter,

You will be off by as much as earth is separate from heaven.

If you want to see Truth,

Call no life experience favorable or unfavorable.

To be caught between favorable and unfavorable

Is the sickness of the mind.

If you miss this key point,

Any practice of meditation would only be a waste of time.

[Eika]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Thanks for the links.

Gassho,
Bill

[Bansho]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hi,

Finding it hard to think of anythiing to say about this book. Talk seems so superfluous.

I know what you mean. It's like a slippery, wet surface. No nooks and crannies to latch on to. Maybe that's good so.

Gassho
Bansho

[CharlesC]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Inspired by what we have been studying and my reactions to it, I've booked a place on a sesshin at the end of this month in the UK. It is led by Tanto Meiya Wender, from the San Francisco Zen Center, who is in the Suzuki lineage.

In this retreat we will explore the role of traditional Zen rituals and forms as vehicles for realising the wisdom and compassion of the Buddha, and will consider questions such as: What is the historical role of ritual in Zen practice? Can ancient rituals be helpful to us today? How does ritual help us to realise our deepest intention, express our gratitude, our feelings, clarify our inter-connection? We will practise with traditional Soto Zen forms of sitting, walking, standing, bowing, chanting and making offerings, as well as variations on traditional practices during meals and drinking tea. The daily schedule will include periods of sitting and walking meditation as well as traditional Zen services (bowing and reciting scriptures). Additional detailed instruction in how to hold services will be available for those who are interested.

I got back from the sesshin last night. It was a very deep experience for me and I have not fully digested it all yet. The first full day I felt very sleepy and with a headache. There were some very noisy birds in the trees outside the mediation hall and their harsh grating noise felt like some fiendishly irritating koan challenging what I was doing sitting in zazen, and of course Suzuki's Blue Jay came to mind The second day the sleepiness cleared and the physical discomfort of sitting took over, with up to eleven sessions of zazen each day. From midday of the third and last full day I stopped resisting things like this and I was just sitting there. The final session of this day I felt a great sense of comradeship with the other people sitting with me in the dimly lit, intimately silent hall.

The sesshin was held in silence which I appreciated a lot after a while. Beforehand I had expected that not being able to talk would be somewhat lonely but in fact I felt doing things together without talking led to a greater feeling of community with everyone else. Talking seems to add a lot of often unnecessary overhead to interacting with other people and it was lovely to be able to do without this.

We ate formally in oryoki style for every meal which also became a great shared experience for me.

Meiya, the teacher, gave us some interesting talks on the role of the forms within Zen practice.

I also enjoyed the three times daily services very much. The words took on a deeper meaning than I had previously appreciated and the chanting was beautiful.

It will be interesting to see how I am affected by this experience in the weeks ahead.

:Charles

[Jundo]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

I got back from the sesshin last night.

[Bansho]

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hi,

I've only read the first two but have also begun to see the texts "merging". I'd also add that Trust in the Heart by Sengcan (3rd Chinese Ancestor) has similarities with the Sandokai. It was written after the Heart Sutra and before the Sandokai.

I suppose that's what lineage is all about - the undistorted message is transmitted through time and space.

JohnH

(Link to two translations of Trust in the Heart: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfj5swv9_34577zjrhd)

Thanks for the link, I'd never heard of this poem.

Bill

Hey Bill,

Pardon me for citing Wiki, but the hour is late. The Xin Xin Ming is one of the biggies, right up there with what we are reading, the Heart Sutra and a few others of that ilk ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming

Here is a version I like (about not having "likes" and "dislikes") ...

The Way of the supreme is not difficult,

If only people will give up preferences.

Like not, dislike not.

Be illuminated.

If you are off by a millimeter,

You will be off by as much as earth is separate from heaven.

If you want to see Truth,

Call no life experience favorable or unfavorable.

To be caught between favorable and unfavorable

Is the sickness of the mind.

If you miss this key point,

Any practice of meditation would only be a waste of time.

For those interested in the Xin Xin Ming, please have a look at Gregory Wonderwheel's new translation as well, hot off the press here: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... 170#p17128

Gassho
Bansho