3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

**CharlesC** · 03-09-2009, 01:12 PM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

My notes on talk four, or rather some personal reactions to the talks so far.

"Everything is within our mind". I'm finding that if you take everything Suzuki says in an allusive and metaphorical way then it makes some sort of spiritual sense. Don't question it rationally, just let it sink in.

The more I study these talks and the Sandokai, the more I see Zen as a religion, i.e. something that can transform your life rather than an intellectual plaything. Zen now seems less of a cut-down and convenient spirituality, something stripped of faith and ritual, something not too demanding. In a literal sense the description of the "Absolute" means to me as little as "God" does from a literal point of view; but as a spritual and religious response to life it has a huge amount of meaning. Or maybe I am just projecting my own childhood Christian conditioning onto Zen.

The idea that because everything is different then everything has its own value is a revolutionary way of thinking.

The interplay between the san and the do becomes quite beautiful, the more I read about it. We don't have to be stuck with whatever causes us suffering. Discrimination is necessary sometimes but it is not everything. We can see it for what it is. With discrimination in its place the the world is a much richer place.

**CharlesC** · 03-09-2009, 01:22 PM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Inspired by what we have been studying and my reactions to it, I've booked a place on a sesshin at the end of this month in the UK. It is led by Tanto Meiya Wender, from the San Francisco Zen Center, who is in the Suzuki lineage.

In this retreat we will explore the role of traditional Zen rituals and forms as vehicles for realising the wisdom and compassion of the Buddha, and will consider questions such as: What is the historical role of ritual in Zen practice? Can ancient rituals be helpful to us today? How does ritual help us to realise our deepest intention, express our gratitude, our feelings, clarify our inter-connection? We will practise with traditional Soto Zen forms of sitting, walking, standing, bowing, chanting and making offerings, as well as variations on traditional practices during meals and drinking tea. The daily schedule will include periods of sitting and walking meditation as well as traditional Zen services (bowing and reciting scriptures). Additional detailed instruction in how to hold services will be available for those who are interested.

**shogyo** · 03-09-2009, 09:24 PM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hi Charles,

See you there

Brian

**Jundo** · 03-10-2009, 02:12 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

It sounds like a fine Sesshin. How many days will it be? (besides being a timeless experience, of course).

**CharlesC** · 03-10-2009, 09:25 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Originally posted by brian

Hi Charles,

See you there

Brian

Yes, hope we can have a chat before the sesshin starts formally and the silence starts.

Originally posted by Jundo

It sounds like a fine Sesshin. How many days will it be? (besides being a timeless experience, of course).

Starts Wednesday evening, end Sunday lunch, a day longer than my first sesshin a year ago. I am working hard on my hip loosening exercises in preparation

:Charles

**prg5001** · 03-10-2009, 10:57 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Originally posted by CharlesC

"Everything is within our mind". I'm finding that if you take everything Suzuki says in an allusive and metaphorical way then it makes some sort of spiritual sense. Don't question it rationally, just let it sink in.

Hi,

I'm going to counter Charles and say that at least for "Everything is within our mind" I think it should be taken literally and rationally.

Whilst I may not go the whole hog, as the Yogacara school does, and I do believe there is some structure to the universe, the manifestations of things as I see them, is firmly within my mind.

From a scientific basis it is quite clear that everything is made of energy, this includes atoms, thoughts, feelings etc. Now, if we take a physical item, say a pencil, which we look at with our eyes then what is happening when we "see" it?

The light waves hit the pencil and reflect off entering into our eyes. The nerves in our eyes then carry an electrical charge to our brain neurons which then fire in complex ways and we get an idea of a pencil.

My argument is that really the "pencil" is the idea of the pencil which actually resides in our mind. The "real" pencil is a bunch of atoms forming molecules making up wood, graphite and paint. They exist in the sense of being a clustering of energy within an energy continuum but it is a sentient being that translates that into a thing.

Any use?

Cheers,

Paul

**CharlesC** · 03-10-2009, 11:47 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Originally posted by prg5001

I'm going to counter Charles and say that at least for "Everything is within our mind" I think it should be taken literally and rationally.
...
Now, if we take a physical item, say a pencil, which we look at with our eyes then what is happening when we "see" it?
...

Suzuki's usage of "big mind" does not appear to be describing just what comes to us via our senses at a particular moment. It seems to embrace everything. I cannot interpret this rationally, only as a metaphor for what happens when our "small mind" drops away and there is no more subject/object split in what we experience.

Whatever we talk about at any moment is within our mind. Everything is within our mind. But usually we think there are many things: there is this, and this, and this out there. In the cosmos there are many stars, but right now we can only reach the moon. In a few years we may reach some other planets, and eventually we may reach some other solar system. In Buddhism, mind and being are one, not different. As there is no limit to cosmic being, there is no limit to our mind; our mind reaches everywhere. It already includes the stars, so our mind is not just our mind. It is something greater than the small mind that we think is our mind. This is our understanding.

This is also how I understand what Norman Fischer says here:

In the world of do the whole of reality appears in overwhelming intensity on every moment of perception. If we experience it as a satori moment we might say, “No self, no person, no hearing” – just the entire universe appearing right here and now. And sometimes we do experience that. Although sesshin can be difficult, I think that one of the things that makes sesshin pleasing is that we often have that experience. If we don’t have it in a powerful way, we can have it in a more quiet way, in feeling oneness in acts of perception, or even in thinking.

**prg5001** · 03-10-2009, 12:50 PM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Originally posted by CharlesC

Suzuki's usage of "big mind" does not appear to be describing just what comes to us via our senses at a particular moment. It seems to embrace everything. I cannot interpret this rationally, only as a metaphor for what happens when our "small mind" drops away and there is no more subject/object split in what we experience.

I agree with you, "big mind" (what is in the dark) is more than what comes to us via our senses at a particular moment.

Cheers,

Paul

**jrh001** · 03-11-2009, 12:01 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hi,

Have been thinking about light and dark, one and many, ri and ji, san and do, independent and interrelated. The words sound like pairs of opposites and it takes some effort to break the habit of "either one or the other" and accept the possibility of "both one and the other". Suzuki describes his words as double-edged swords that cut both ways (forward and backward) at the same time.

I read somewhere that nonduality is the middle path between something and its opposite. And this creates the other possibility "neither one nor the other"; neither light nor dark, neither ri nor ji... Somehow this seems to make sense in terms of "acceptance without judgement."

Also, I wonder sometimes if this poem (and Suzuki's comments) and the apparent contradictions (in the way words are used) are aiming to "break" your small mind. Perhaps the book is one very long koan.

JohnH :?

**Jundo** · 03-11-2009, 05:23 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Originally posted by jrh001

Also, I wonder sometimes if this poem (and Suzuki's comments) and the apparent contradictions (in the way words are used) are aiming to "break" your small mind. Perhaps the book is one very long koan.

JohnH :?

Yep. Absolutely so! (and relatively too)

**Shogen** · 03-11-2009, 09:28 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hi
Norm Fischer says, "ALL THINGS ARE ROOTED IN DO!" KENSHO! This could be precisely where the Northern School and Southern School intersect and proceed without difference.

Like the trees, flowers, and weeds, are rooted in the earth "all things" are rooted in the Source. Even though the Source cannot be seen, it is always and everywhere, like Branching Streams Flowing In The Darkness. Words cannot describe the ineffable Source but, we can experience it while sitting in Zazen. One moment with quiet mind and still senses, sitting Zazen, is one moment within the Source. Is the Source and
Zen Mind or Begginners Mind the same thing? Was this the mind of which Shunryu Suzuki said, " all things exist?" Was this the mind the great sage of India, Buddha, passed on Patriarch to Patriarch, to this present day?

Self Respect Gassho Zak

**John** · 03-11-2009, 03:56 PM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Charles - do you know that the co-abott of the San Francisco Zen Center, Paul Haller, comes to N.Ireland twice a year to lead retreats: http://www.blackmountainzencentre.org/8.html
They also follow the 5-day Wednesday to Sunday pattern,

Gassho,
Doshin

**Dosho** · 03-12-2009, 05:22 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Hi all,

I've read the chapter half a dozen times and listened to NF's talk twice and the most profound statement I can make about Suzuki Roshi's words is:

Yup.

Gassho,
Scott

**CharlesC** · 03-12-2009, 09:20 AM

Re: 3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

Originally posted by John

Charles - do you know that the co-abott of the San Francisco Zen Center, Paul Haller, comes to N.Ireland twice a year to lead retreats: http://www.blackmountainzencentre.org/8.html
They also follow the 5-day Wednesday to Sunday pattern,

Gassho,
Doshin

Hi John: yes, I'd noticed that already and considered attending the April retreat but the travel cost would have been a lot more. Maybe another time.

Thanks, Charles

3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

3/6 - Branching Streams: 4th Talk - The Blue Jay

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