2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

[Bansho]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hi Dosho,

If I translate ri into English, it is already ji.

By this standard, will we ever truly know if we are enlightened? Not to be cliche, but is it a case of we won't know it if we see it because if we see it, it wasn't ever there?

If you 'know' or 'see' it, it's just thinking. It's imposing a separation between 'you' and 'enlightenment' by means of your thoughts. Nonthinking is realization, not seeing. The potential is always there, but it's only manifested through realization. Shikantaza is realization is enlightenment. In Genjo Koan, Dogen Zenji describes it like this:

When buddhas are really buddhas, they do not need to recognize themselves as buddhas. Nevertheless, they are buddhas in the state of experience, and they go on experiencing the state of buddha.
-- trans. by Gudo Wafu Nishijima and Chodo Cross

Only non-buddhas see buddhas. Buddhas just are buddhas.

Gassho
Bansho

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hi John,

Norm Fisher also points out that dark can also represent one, if I remember it right. In the dark of the night all the streams look like one. :roll:

* light = one, purity. There's some discussion about the words Suzuki uses - NF doesn't think that "noumenal" is the correct word.
* dark = many, impurity. Dark = "don't know".
JohnH

Gassho,

Irina

[prg5001]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

"Grasping at things" means to stick to the many things you see. Understanding that each being is different, you see each one as something special, and usually then you will stick to something.

As I have sat more often and for longer periods, I have noticed that many of my preconceived notions of things, people, even myself have begun to drop away...is this what Suzuki Roshi is describing? Or is he saying that there are no things, people, or self in the first place?

I think there are no things in the first place so it's good when the preconceived notions of things drop away.

If I translate ri into English, it is already ji.

By this standard, will we ever truly know if we are enlightened? Not to be cliche, but is it a case of we won't know it if we see it because if we see it, it wasn't ever there?

If you can be in the state of zazen 24x7 anywhere, anytime, any place then I think you can safely say you are fully enlightened. Anything less and best to keep trying.

My thoughts anyway.

Cheers,

Paul

[CharlesC]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

I think there are no things in the first place so it's good when the preconceived notions of things drop away.

Isn't the point of the Sandokai that there are things, at the same time as there are no things, depending on which of two co-existing perspectives you take.

:Charles

[Bansho]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hi,

Hi John,

Norm Fisher also points out that dark can also represent one, if I remember it right. In the dark of the night all the streams look like one. :roll:

* light = one, purity. There's some discussion about the words Suzuki uses - NF doesn't think that "noumenal" is the correct word.
* dark = many, impurity. Dark = "don't know".
JohnH

Gassho,

Irina

I think those lines beautifully exhibit the mutual interpenetration of the foci relative/absolute, form/emptiness, delusion/enlightenment by allowing light and dark to be interpreted one way or the other, depending on your perspective. IMHO both interpretations are correct.

The spiritual source shines clear in the light;
the branching streams flow on in the dark.

"The spiritual source shines clear in the light". At first glance, the references to 'source', 'clear', 'light' seem to be referring solely to one, the absolute or enlightenment. They are, but at the same time, light is also just that which allows differences to appear, clearly illuminating all phenomena, form and that which is relative.

"The branching streams flow on in the dark". Similarly, 'branching streams' are multitude, relative phenomena and 'dark' can imply the absence of illumination or enlightenment, namely delusion. On the other hand, in the darkness all relative differences disappear and return to the absolute, emptiness.

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Light is darkness, darkness is light.

Of course, if you look at the lines "but in the true way there is no Ancestor of North or South" and "the branching streams flow in the dark" together, you can see that Sekito Kisen allows himself a subtle criticism of the sectarianism which was beginning to emerge in his day here as well. Relative differences such as north/south or gradual/sudden which are represented by the 'branching streams' are swallowed up in the absolute darkness. I think that's what John resp. Norman Fisher is showing here:

* branching streams - the chinese symbols represent teachings/viewpoints/sects, not necessarily "streams" - he says the word "stream" doesn't appear.

Gassho
Bansho

[Tb]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

If you can be in the state of zazen 24x7 anywhere, anytime, any place then I think you can safely say you are fully enlightened. Anything less and best to keep trying.

Hi.

Is that in the metric system or yards?

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Jundo]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

If I translate ri into English, it is already ji.

By this standard, will we ever truly know if we are enlightened? Not to be cliche, but is it a case of we won't know it if we see it because if we see it, it wasn't ever there?

If you can be in the state of zazen 24x7 anywhere, anytime, any place then I think you can safely say you are fully enlightened. Anything less and best to keep trying.

Oh, if you keep the lights on all the time, you won't see what's to see in the dark. And you won't get any sleep. Not a good way to live.

I would not try to keep the lights on 24/7. You'll go blind! Wastes a lot of power too.

I like the ability to live in the world of light and shadows ... but to turn the bright high beams on when needed.

In fact, no film is available without light and shadows. With only the projector light, you would have a blank screen. With the other, just confusion. But the light is there even in the shadows.

Anyway, just some passing thoughts.

Gassho, J

[jrh001]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Norm Fisher also points out that dark can also represent one, if I remember it right. In the dark of the night all the streams look like one. :roll:

Hi Irina,

Yes I remember hearing that. He said that, later in the poem, light and dark are used in the opposite way

...
"The spiritual source shines clear in the light". At first glance, the references to 'source', 'clear', 'light' seem to be referring solely to one, the absolute or enlightenment. They are, but at the same time, light is also just that which allows differences to appear, clearly illuminating all phenomena, form and that which is relative.

"The branching streams flow on in the dark". Similarly, 'branching streams' are multitude, relative phenomena and 'dark' can imply the absence of illumination or enlightenment, namely delusion. On the other hand, in the darkness all relative differences disappear and return to the absolute, emptiness.

Thanks Bansho,

Looking ahead to find the lines Irina referred to, these lines use light and dark in the way you describe:

Refined and common speech come together in the dark, (differences disappear, one)
clear and murky phrases are distinguished in the light. (differences appear, many)

JohnH

[will]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Refined and common speech come together in the dark, (differences disappear, one)
clear and murky phrases are distinguished in the light. (differences appear, many)

My intuition (probably just another rephrasing of what you said) is that these words meaning are exactly what they say.

Dogen talked about standing on a ship in the Genjo Koan:

When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing.

For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round or square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only looks circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this.

or this translation:

When the true law is not fully absorbed by our body and mind, we think that it is sufficient. But if the right law is fully enfolded by our body and mind, we feel that something is missing. For example, when you take a boat to sea, where mountains are out of sight, and look around, you see only roundness; you cannot see anything else. But this great ocean is neither round nor square. Its other characteristics are countless. Some see it as a palace, other as an ornament. We only see it as round for the time being - within the field of our vision: this is the way we see all things. Though various things are contained in this world of enlightenment, we can see and understand only as far as the vision of a Zen trainee. To know the essence of all things, you should realize that in addition to appearance as a square or circle, there are many other characteristics of ocean and mountain and that there are many worlds. It is not a matter of environment: you - must understand that a drop contains the ocean and that the right law is directly beneath your feet.

When you turn the lights on, there are a tremendous amount of shapes and colors. We can see everything clearly that's in front of our face or peripherally. (if we have the ability to see that is)

But when you turn the lights out in the night, the wide variety of colors disappear. It's just the way it is. However, there's more going on then just what we can only see with our eyes.

lights on = can read
lights off = can't read (unless you have super vision)

Gassho

Will

[will]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

wrong quote.

here's the one:

If in riding a boat you look toward the shore, you erroneously think that the shore is moving. But upon looking carefully at the ship, you see that it is the ship that is actually moving. Similarly, seeing all things through a misconception of your body and mind gives rise to the mistake that this mind and substance are eternal. If you live truly and return to the source, it is clear that all things have no substance. Burning logs become ashes - and cannot return again to logs. There for you should not view ashes as after and logs as before. You must understand that a burning log - as a burning log - has before and after. But although it has past and future, it is cut off from past and future. Ashes as ashes have after and before. Just as ashes do not become logs again after becoming ashes, man does not live again after death. So not to say that life becomes death is a natural standpoint of Buddhism. So this is called no-life.

The first quote works to though.

Gassho

[John]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Sandokai means precisely that we have to go beyond sticking to many-ness and merging with oneness, to an ever changing meeting with whatever comes in living. And that’s Sandokai – going beyond oneness, going beyond many-ness, while holding both of them in their proper places.

This simultaneity is what Jundo is always trying to get us to see. We keep trying to decide that one way is the 'right' way and deciding another is 'wrong'. It's more like being with the wholeness of everything,

Gassho,
Doshin

[prg5001]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

If you can be in the state of zazen 24x7 anywhere, anytime, any place then I think you can safely say you are fully enlightened. Anything less and best to keep trying.

Oh, if you keep the lights on all the time, you won't see what's to see in the dark. And you won't get any sleep. Not a good way to live.

I would not try to keep the lights on 24/7. You'll go blind! Wastes a lot of power too.

I like the ability to live in the world of light and shadows ... but to turn the bright high beams on when needed.

In fact, no film is available without light and shadows. With only the projector light, you would have a blank screen. With the other, just confusion. But the light is there even in the shadows.

Anyway, just some passing thoughts.

Gassho, J

Hmm, is the state of zazen the same as keeping the lights on?

Cheers, Paul

[prg5001]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

I think there are no things in the first place so it's good when the preconceived notions of things drop away.

Isn't the point of the Sandokai that there are things, at the same time as there are no things, depending on which of two co-existing perspectives you take.

:Charles

Yes, I think you're right.

Cheers,

Paul

[prg5001]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

If you can be in the state of zazen 24x7 anywhere, anytime, any place then I think you can safely say you are fully enlightened. Anything less and best to keep trying.

Hi.

Is that in the metric system or yards?

Mtfbwy
Tb

Hi Fugen,

I'm not sure if you're joking or not but I mean all the time.

It's an idea I am playing about with at the moment and I'm interested in any views.

Cheers,

Paul

[Jundo]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

If you can be in the state of zazen 24x7 anywhere, anytime, any place then I think you can safely say you are fully enlightened. Anything less and best to keep trying.

It's an idea I am playing about with at the moment and I'm interested in any views.

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul,

You mean, is "enlightenment" to always perceive and experience the "absolute" beyond time, 24/7?

The Buddhas are said to be so. Some gurus and such claim to always be so, though I sometimes wonder. But I do not think that most ordinary people are so. In any event, I do not think it a very necessary or practical way to live.

I am more than content to have the ability to "switch the absolute on" on demand, when I need, when myself gets lost in the tangle of this world. That's something we can learn with time. Today I witnessed a bad car accident (I was not directly involved, just a witness). It was very shocking, with a rolling car that landed on its roof in front of me. I helped pull the people out of the car window (a little girl and grandma, fortunately without a scratch). I feel that I can taste the "absolute" in that, and it helps to settle the experience for me ... stillness even amid the chaos of the accident and bent metal.

The "absolute" is there always, even when we cannot see it (like the moon in the daytime or the sun behind clouds). I have no need to see the sun or moon 24/7. In fact, I could not live if it was always dark or sunny. But both are there always.

Anyway, that is my view.

Gassho, J