2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

[Dosho]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hi all,

I haven't posted in the book club for awhile and after a couple days of missed sittings I felt a bit out of whack, but coming here and catching up on posts always helps me get back to my flow.

I very much enjoyed NF's talk and his way of speaking...informed and knowlegedable, but never overbearing or commanding...it just is.

After reading Suzuki Roshi's first talk I remember posting that I thought I could read it several times and glean new meaning each time. After reading the second talk several times the message seemed so simple that I began to wonder if I was missing something. After reading the third talk just once I feel closer to the way I did with the first but know full well the simplicity is there right along with the complexity.

I need to read it again and will post again.

Gassho,
Scott

[will]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

To force our fixed concepts on an ever-changing world is delusion. To let the ever-changing process of the world inform our thought and ultimately, our sense of who we are, is wisdom.

Thanks Bill.

Gassho

[jrh001]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

But, Suzuki Roshi used the example that when you think of the "river over there" as a thing that only exists in the mind. I believe that I understand what he is saying in that I would be carrying a static idea (of the river) in my head. But, could it seem that this could be used to imply solipsism - that the one true reality is one's subjective reality and that there is no objective reality?

Hi Tony,

Someone on another forum once had an avatar which showed a person with a projector on their head. The implication was that the mind projects reality onto the outside world. (I've tried to find the image but can't). In that case, Jundo is right, you'd better keep thinking about all of us or we're history!

I think it's better to imagine a projector inside your head. It's wired to all the sensory inputs and projects onto a screen inside your mind creating your reality. There is a river or a Blue Jay but I can only ever perceive it through my senses. Someone with better vision will see it differently. Someone who can't see colours or can't hear will perceive it in a different way.

Still muddy?

JohnH

[CharlesC]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Jundo quoted something he wrote earlier:

But when we are sitting a moment of Zazen ... perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... piercing Dukkha, attaining non-self, non-attached ... then there is not the slightest gap between each of us and the Buddha.

What happens if we never experience this sort of "awakening" or "realization", even after years of practice? Is the lessening or ending of suffering in our lives dependent on this sort of experience?

Does being a Buddhist have to be an act of faith for most people, in the same way that Christians have faith in God. Faith that the Buddha and people following him really did learn something about the nature of reality, that the "Source" is here in our lives, that we really do have something in our sleeve; rather than knowing these things directly.

I've read elsewhere that, unlike other religions, we can discover the truth of Buddhism for ourselves, particularly in Zen. But how likely is this? Isn't Buddhism for most of us a question of believing what other people tell us, or even not believing anything but still following the practices of Buddhism because they seem to lead to a happier and more satisfying life, compared to, say, a consumer oriented lifestyle.

When Suzuki was giving these talks, what percentage of his audience would he have expected to ever gain direct understanding of what he was talking about?

Just some of the questions and doubts I have had while studying the Sandokai.

[Jundo]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Jundo quoted something he wrote earlier:

But when we are sitting a moment of Zazen ... perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... piercing Dukkha, attaining non-self, non-attached ... then there is not the slightest gap between each of us and the Buddha.

What happens if we never experience this sort of "awakening" or "realization", even after years of practice? Is the lessening or ending of suffering in our lives dependent on this sort of experience?

I posted a comment on this which I thought worth a thread. Would you kindly have a look? Let me know if it resonates.

viewtopic.php?p=20605#p20605

[Tb]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hi.
I'll answer in the text...

Jundo quoted something he wrote earlier:

But when we are sitting a moment of Zazen ... perfectly whole, just complete unto itself, without borders and duration, not long or short, nothing to add or take away, containing all moments and no moments in "this one moment" ... piercing Dukkha, attaining non-self, non-attached ... then there is not the slightest gap between each of us and the Buddha.

What happens if we never experience this sort of "awakening" or "realization", even after years of practice? Is the lessening or ending of suffering in our lives dependent on this sort of experience?

Nope.
Just part of the practice.

Does being a Buddhist have to be an act of faith for most people, in the same way that Christians have faith in God. Faith that the Buddha and people following him really did learn something about the nature of reality, that the "Source" is here in our lives, that we really do have something in our sleeve; rather than knowing these things directly.

I've read elsewhere that, unlike other religions, we can discover the truth of Buddhism for ourselves, particularly in Zen. But how likely is this? Isn't Buddhism for most of us a question of believing what other people tell us, or even not believing anything but still following the practices of Buddhism because they seem to lead to a happier and more satisfying life, compared to, say, a consumer oriented lifestyle.

We'rent there some dude some 2500 years ago that said we can ONLY discover the truth by ourselves?
As for the practicing part, you'll have to ask them, i dont know...

Mtfbwy
Tb

[JeffLegg]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

My mind is mush in trying to consider the English translation but knowing that it is from Chinese. Then, learning that the Chinese can mean differering things. Nice little conundrum.

But, I'm intrigued by the line: Grasping at things is surely delusion, according with sameness is still not enlightenment. Building on what Suzuki Roshi writes later in the chapter in that (paraphrasing) 'people don't follow the Precepts' and the discussion about the 3 historical states of Buddhism with the final state being a blind following of ritual, I wonder if we can interpret the English translation as something like: it isn't enough to hear the dharma but you must live it.

Again, maybe I'm taking this down a different path than what was intended by the author but I really find meaning to this. I guess I affected by the the need to 'walk the walk' in so many of our actions. We can state we support equality, charity, compassion--all good stuff. But, we must then do. We must make it a reality for ourselves and others. Maybe these lines resonate with me as this endeavor (and at times, struggle) has been one of the biggests changes in me since I began my practice.

I really hope I'm not going too far off the path with an interpretation of a translation that may not be true to the original meaning.

Thank you,
Jeff

[Shogen]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hello
Grasping at things is surely delusion ( yes it is!)
According with sameness is still not enlightenment ( no it isn't!)

Sometimes words are so beautifully and simply arranged that nothing need be added or taken away.

" Wordiness and intellection - The more with them the further astray we go; ( Senegan - 600 C.E. )
Thank you John H

" Drop all judgements, desires, likes, and dislikes on the Zafu ... all thoughts of separation ... and the
greed, anger, and ignorance have not fuel, vanishes like a blown out flame. Then rise up from the
Zafu and seek to remember that quiet amid the burning firestorms of life." ( Jundo )
Thank you Jundo Roshi
Gassho Zak

[Jenny]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

I find the example very helpful which JohnH gives of how we create outside reality (i.e. the river, the
Blue Jay) inside our mind, which is then unique to us. We see it not only through our senses but then
we individually interpret what we see or start creating a story around it. Some of these stories can
be amazing!

Jenny

[Shohei]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hiyas
lots of goodies in this chapter too. and Alot of goodies coming from all of you!

Laying out ji and ri I found very helpful. to much to quote but each bit he laid out made things very clear.

An enlightened person does not ignore things and does not stick to things, not even to the truth.

I had some off topic thoughs started by this line that I have posted hereif your so inclined to read...

When you really know yourself, you will realize how important it is to practice zazen.

This and the lot that follows is what I have experienced first hand and so I whole heartedly agree.

Also I found the bit about the 3 "times" of Buddhism that would come about 1500 years after Buddhas death interesting.

I think that the imposing a length of time was short sighted! I thought that rather than periods spanning 1500 years, Buddhism will cycle in this way until there is no need for it. As said before (sorry source not in my mind right now) That if we were all Buddhists there would be no need for Buddhism (same applies to many religions IMO). Right now I think Buddha's teachings are very much alive and useful today. I think the important time to remember of all 3 of those periods is Now. Now we are just reading the sutras and paying lip-service to the teachings,Now we didn't observe the precepts, Now we are all the great sages disciples . the 3 periods discussed happen every day and every moment. Shobo, Zobo and Mappo each can take place in a moment or span thousands of years.

Gassho, Shohei

[BrianW]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

For example, when Buddhism came to China it was heavily influenced by, and pretty much merged with, Taoism

Thanks Jundo for the information pertaining to the Taoist influence…I, like CharlesC, thought this week’s reading pointed to a Taoist connection.

I was really struck with how beautifully poetic the concepts were expressed. Roshi Fisher’s discussion was especially helpful. As he states the nature of the Chinese characters for spiritual source suggest “a softness…like a cloud floating in the sky” and the other compound part of the character suggest “a gentle glowing light.”

The light being associated with the oneness and the dark with manyness, also beautifully poetic. I find it fascinating that later on in the Sandokai dark is associated with oneness and light with manyness….so wonderfully fluid! In some respects I see such fluidity an illustration of how we should not fall in the trap of getting “stuck.”

I agree with Dirk...lots of goodies in this chapter and in the discussion! A thanks to Jundo and all for the latter!

Gassho,
BrianW

[Jundo]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Thank you Jundo Roshi
Gassho Zak

No need for the Roshi/Sensei thing around here (really a Western invention, by the way). You can call me something like that when they name an exit on the highway for me or something. 8)

Gassho, Jundo

[Bansho]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hi,

Regarding Taoism/Daoism: yes, there's undeniably an influence there. I've just finished reading an excellent translation of the Book of Serenity (Jap. Shoyoroku, Chin. Cong-Rong-Lu), the collection of 100 koans compiled by Hongzhi (who also wrote the closing verses and was otherwise a strong proponent of 'Silent Illumination') and introduced and commented on by Wan-Song (Jap. Bansho, but not the same Kanji as mine ). In that collection, there are various implicit as well as explicit references to the Dao-De-Jing, the literary basis of Daoism. Dogen Zenji was adamant, however, in his position that the Buddha-Dharma is not the same as Daoism or Confuzianism.

Gassho
Bansho

[BrianW]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Regarding Taoism/Daoism: yes, there's undeniably an influence there. I've just finished reading an excellent translation of the Book of Serenity (Jap. Shoyoroku, Chin. Cong-Rong-Lu), the collection of 100 koans compiled by Hongzhi (who also wrote the closing verses and was otherwise a strong proponent of 'Silent Illumination') and introduced and commented on by Wan-Song (Jap. Bansho, but not the same Kanji as mine ). In that collection, there are various implicit as well as explicit references to the Dao-De-Jing, the literary basis of Daoism. Dogen Zenji was adamant, however, in his position that the Buddha-Dharma is not the same as Daoism or Confuzianism.

Thanks Bansho...I will add this to my reading list!

Gassho,
BrianW

[Dosho]

Re: 2/27- Branching Streams: 3rd Talk - Buddha is Always Here

Hi all,

The true source, ri, is beyond or thinking; it is pure and stainless. When you describe it, you put a limitation on it.

"Grasping at things" means to stick to the many things you see. Understanding that each being is different, you see each one as something special, and usually then you will stick to something.

As I have sat more often and for longer periods, I have noticed that many of my preconceived notions of things, people, even myself have begun to drop away...is this what Suzuki Roshi is describing? Or is he saying that there are no things, people, or self in the first place?

If I translate ri into English, it is already ji.

By this standard, will we ever truly know if we are enlightened? Not to be cliche, but is it a case of we won't know it if we see it because if we see it, it wasn't ever there?

Scholarly study belongs to ji. Ri is something you can experience through practice. You may think that scholarly work is ri, but for us it is not so.

This resonated with me quite a bit as a former doc student who abandoned his studies at the comprehensive exam stage. I knew that it wasn't for me but never exactly why. I'm not saying it isn't worthwhile to undertake scholarly study, but I think my original itention was to study something closer to ri but was now obviously ji and was never going to be reconciled.

We talk about emptiness, and you may think you understand it; but even though you can explain it pretty well, it is ji not ri. Real emptiness will be experienced -- not experienced, but realized -- by good practice.

If the essence of zen is something that can never be defined, how can we really talk about it? Can't we only do it...or not do it...I'm confusing myself! At least I know it isn't what I thought it was and I think that's the point.

Gassho,
Dosho