2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

[prg5001]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi Irina: I have no idea of how far we can take non-discrimination but I suspect that even if we just reduce the amount of unnecessary judgement and discrimination in our day-to-day life then we can reduce the amount of "friction" in our life, to use Jundo's metaphor, and so reduce the low-level dissatisfaction unnecessary discrimination causes us all the time. Recent personal examples I can think of: another car too close behind me on the road, instead of entering a long-winded irritable narrative in my mind about BMW drivers, I could just drive more carefully until he passes; the work top in the office kitchen is a mess, instead of being disgusted by it I can just clean it up in a few seconds. And so on, including how we judge ourselves. Difficult to reach that level of acceptance though.

:Charles

The ultimate is to see the discrimination and let it go. We see, we like or don't like, it passes. Where did it come from? Where was it when it was there? Where did it go? Who is watching it? That's why zazen is the gateway as it gives us the space to see all this happening in real-time and enjoy it. Discrimination will reduce anyway as we get bored with it.

Cheers,

Paul

[Jundo]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi Irina: I have no idea of how far we can take non-discrimination but I suspect that even if we just reduce the amount of unnecessary judgement and discrimination in our day-to-day life then we can reduce the amount of "friction" in our life, to use Jundo's metaphor, and so reduce the low-level dissatisfaction unnecessary discrimination causes us all the time. Recent personal examples I can think of: another car too close behind me on the road, instead of entering a long-winded irritable narrative in my mind about BMW drivers, I could just drive more carefully until he passes; the work top in the office kitchen is a mess, instead of being disgusted by it I can just clean it up in a few seconds. And so on, including how we judge ourselves. Difficult to reach that level of acceptance though.

:Charles

Sometimes we can simplify our minds, sometimes it is not so easy and we get all tangled up in thoughts and passions.

Some folks think that, when you get this Buddhism thing "right", become "enlightened" and a "Buddha" ... we will never get tangled up in thought and emotions again.

Well, maybe so. Maybe it is true, maybe an idealized image. But in the meantime, we are all just ordinary "human beings" with heads sometimes full of trash.

As best you can, during your day ... dump the trash and keep the gold of thoughts and emotions. Simplify your mind. You won't always be able to (and quite often you may dump the gold and be up to your neck in trash) ... but do your best.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jenny]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi Charles. Point taken. (By the way I noticed your original spelling of skilful was correct and then I
see that in USA 2 ll's are used!)
Jenny

[will]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Irina

OI totally agree here but I think what throws us (at least me off) is that i DO have to discriminate: when picking the fruit at the market I try to choose the best ones or at least not the ones who are not fresh; employers have to choose "the best" person for the job, in the morning I have to choose between different ways to the train station. I "pick and choose" less now even when buying something and do not discard a bouquet of flowers because some of the flowers start withering.

Irina,

Buddhas do not need to choose.

But it is a choice to choose or not to choose.

Here is a quote from Suzuki Roshi:

Student: How much ego should one have?

Suzuki: Enough not to get hit by a bus.

I'll add:

A lot of the time we have no choice in the matter. We can discriminate unintelligently with misunderstanding.

That is what Zazen is for.

Gassho

Will

[jrh001]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Reading the sentence "the way has no Northern or Southern Ancestors" and the discussion of absolute equality, I wondered if Sekito/S Suzuki meant that the differences between the schools didn't matter and that the schools were of equal value.

Without knowing any Japanese and just reading the English translation, the statement could be interpreted in a slightly different way; the ancestors of the way are not Northern or Southern. That is, the (true) ancestors precede the distinction of Northern or Southern.

Just a thought... :idea:

JohnH

[Shohei]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi
This chapter was great. Perhaps because I'm exhausted physically and mentally to day it reached me easily, and I was nodding at the book like i was listening intently to him speaking.

"The clever ones do not always have an advantage in studying or accepting Buddhism, and its not always the dull person who has difficulty. A dull person is good because he is dull; a sharper person is good because he is sharp. Even though you compare you cannot say which is best."

and shortly there after

"... Actually there is no dull person or smart person..."

His story about staying with his master while all the good cucumbers ran away made me smile.

Also I dug the explanation of ki. laying it out like he did with such care, it was very easy for me to grasp and gain new perspectives.

"When you don't think about time, you can be very generous with everyone, you can treat people very well. But if you think about time, about today and tomorrow, you cannot be so generous because you will lose time.

Suffering with others when they are suffering, crying with them and so on... very wise advice i know i have read hear before

To practice is not to collect things and put them in your basket, but rather to find something in your sleeve.

Actually I'd like to quote most of what I read here its all very good

I enjoyed reading the quoted bit in Jundo's beginning post, Having read it made it reading this chapter and his use of the North and South schools, that much clearer.

Gassho, Shohei

[Jundo]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi,

I would like to drop in a few words on "sudden" vs. "gradual" enlightenment.

Some Zen students may be left with the impression, from reading some types of books about Zen ... (perhaps many of the first English books about Zen, like those by D.T. Suzuki ... not to be confused with ol' Shunryu Suzuki) .... that one is eventually "suddenly enlightened" and done. Perhaps one hears the sound of a a distant bell, dripping water, or a pebble bouncing down some steps ... and, suddenly, all the universe is clear, all questions resolved ... time to collect your "Enlightenment Diploma" and call it a day.



Others think that enlightenment is "sudden" because we are all "Originally Buddha" "Enlightened from the Get Go" ... we need do nothing. That all our greed, anger and ignorance is just the Buddha's greed, anger and ignorance ... cause we are already him and he is just foolish us. So, feel free to pillage and plunder ... do whatever you like, cause you are the Buddha.

This fellow thought so ...



On the other hand, some think that "enlightenment" is distant, and gradual, because we must slowly polish ourselves, strip ourselves of all human faults and imperfections to get to that far off "Promised Land" of Nirvana where ... LIFE WILL BE PERFECT and WE WILL BE PERFECT BEINGS, Buddhas COMPLETELY free of all human desire. It may take countless lifetimes of polishing until we remove each last drop of all our cravings and faults that makes us now so much "less" than Buddha.

You can be like these fellows (made of gold, not seeing the gold that is already there)



But I think that each of those views is true in its way, incomplete in its way (in fact, both the teachers of the Northern and Southern schools were teaching much the same thing ... )

Enlightenment is "sudden" because we are already Buddha, are already complete. However, it may take time for us to gradually realize this fact in our lives. We must realize this, and make it real, moment by moment in our lives.

Greed, anger and ignorance obscure the peace and perfection of our lives, so we must constantly make effort to wipe each away. But the best means to "wipe each away", is through sudden on-the-spot tastes of contentment, peace and wisdom (we see that there is no dust in need of cleaning, even as we wipe the dust). And we can never fully "wipe each away", not so long as we are human beings with these often greedy, angry and ignorant human bodies and minds. Thus, we do not extinguish "greed anger and ignorance", so much as see through them, learn not to be trapped by them, learn to see life in other ways free of "greed anger and ignorance". THE ENDLESS WIPING (and NOT WIPING) --IS-- THE PERFECT CLEANING ACHIEVED.

Enlightenment is not a single stopping place (although, yes, in one of its many facets, it is a taste in which all things "stop"), but a freedom to live moment by ever changing moment in this life. More than peace and stillness, it is the ability to taste peace and stillness amid and as the ever changing turmoil and movement (often chaos) that is this world.

Insights come and go in our practice. There is no "One Insight" that ends all need for others (although, yes, there is One Insight that sweeps in all others, like a single theatre stage holds all the moments of drama and comedy present there over the years ... but we best not mistake the stage for the whole wonderful show!). There are countless insights, large and small.

If you think that "enlightenment" is distant, it is. If you search for some human conception of "perfection" (as you imagine it) no human will attain that.

And such is the meaning, goal and purpose of "meaningless" "goalless" "purposeless" Shikantaza ...

Taste a moment of Zazen, and any moment of life, as perfect and complete ... and it is. (Not "perfect" and "complete" as you might wish in your dreams and small ideals ... but perfectly-completely-itself, just what it is).

Drop all judgments, desires, likes and dislikes on the Zafu ... all thoughts of separation ... and the "greed, anger and ignorance" have not fuel, vanishes like a blown out flame. Then, rise up from the Zafu and seek to remember that quiet even amid the burning firestorms of life.

My friend Nonin likes to say,

A minute of Zazen is a minute of Buddha, 25 years of Zazen is 25 years of Buddha ... and they are not quite the same.

Dogen writes ...

Day and night
Night and day,
The way of Dharma in everyday life
In each act our hearts
Resonate with the call of the Sutra

One hears the sound of a distant temple bell, and all is resolved and just as it should be ... yet we keep on living. The vibrations of the temple bell carry on endlessly.

It is gradual, it is instant ... it is beyond all thought of instant or gradual.

Gassho, Jundo

[Bansho]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi Jundo,

Beautiful - thank you.

Gassho
Bansho

[Shohei]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

^^ indeed it is!
Thank you Jundo.

Gassho Shohei

[Tb]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi.

Scientifically, the bellringing is very interesting.

When you hit the bell to ring, the sound resonates (bounces) of you so that it in practice your ringing.
That would imply in the long run that when you hit the bell to ring, the bell isn't ringing you are (and the rest of the world).

Another way of saying it would be "when you ring the bell, everything rings.."
sound familiar?

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Martin]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Enlightenment is not a single stopping place (although, yes, in one of its many facets, it is a taste in which all things "stop"), but a freedom to live moment by ever changing moment in this life. More than peace and stillness, it is the ability to taste peace and stillness amid and as the ever changing turmoil and movement (often chaos) that is this world.

Thank you Jundo, beautifully put.

It reminded me T S Eliot in Burnt Norton on the subject of stillness yet being part of the dance:

"At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement. And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered. Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the point, the still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance".

Gassho

Martin

[shogyo]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

I think the timing of this talk is interesting regarding some of the discussions that are going on about current disputes. The dharma seems to continue through these interpretations and disputes and act to clarify issues and interpretations

The 'skilful means' of the teacher are clearly important but it is easy to see that tensions are created by actions such as the following:

All the other monks deferred to Shen-hsiu, the senior disciple. Shen-hsiu composed a verse which Hung-jen publicly praised while telling Shen-hsiu in private that it fell short of the mark. When Hui-neng heard about the contest, he instantly knew what to write and, being illiterate, had a temple page inscribe his verse on a wall. Hung-jen, hearing of this, said publicly that this verse was lacking, but late that night called Hui-neng to his room and ‘transmitted his Dharma’ to him, naming him as his successor and sixth patriarch, and giving him the robe and bowl of Bodhidharma as tokens.

This seems to create an elitist position for the senior disciples and presumably is related to their own training, but for the other people involved, 'all the other monks' it creates a situation where there is a tension at the core of the teacher/disciple relationship which must play out at some time. Again presumably this is to enable learning at the appropriate time.

I've always struggled with the precepts in this way in that I've tended to interprete them in an absolutist way you should not kill anything means exactly that.

[John]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Beautiful teaching Jundo, Gassho.

"…… Right now to get out of my suffering is the most important thing for me. You can't help me, nothing can help me."
When you hear this, you should be Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva -- you should become like the one who is suffering, and you should suffer as that person suffers. Because of your innate love, your instinctive love, you share their suffering. That is love in its true sense.

That passage really speaks to me. So often when we try to help people with their practice we have to realise that they are suffering, be aware and open to it, and realise that they don't want to hear a lot of complicated teaching or intellectual theory, but something that will help them directly with the suffering they are experiencing at this moment. And often the best teaching is just to sit and listen, "deep listening" as Thich Nhat Hanh puts it.

Gassho,
Doshin