2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

[Shugen]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

I also had a little trouble wrapping my head around "differentiation". But now, what a great way of putting things! We all compare our selves to others, "his car is nicer than mine, her house is nicer than mine....etc" It's all so pointless! Nothing is important because everything is important. Things stand on there own merit.

I also completely misunderstood the difference between the Northern and Southern school.

Whoever said you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Ron

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi John,

All different things have equal absolute value.
Seeing "things as it is" = observation without judgement.

JohnH

Yes, thanks to reminding me about it. Thinking it in terms of "absolute" and "relative" value makes sense :-).
It also helped to listen to the second talk by Norman Fisher.

Gassho,

Irina

[JeffLegg]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

I've had some trouble wrapping my brain around this chapter. But, what seems to keep coming to mind after reading it once and viewing the discussion board is skillful means. Several have already addressed the variances in teaching methods that stil help us to achieve the same goal. Northern and Southern schools differ but they ultimately achieve the same result.

Going to reread and hope to integrate the discussion board with what I read. It will be intersting to see if I gain any insight.

Jeff

[Dosho]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi all,

I've been away for a few days so I just got to read the chapter, listen to the film, and read the comments in this thread. That's a lot to take in over the course of an hour and I shall have to read the chapter again, perhaps several times, before I can make any thoughtful comments. However, I will say that as I compare the experience of reading the chpaters in the pure black and white vs. the grayscale of the film...seeing Suzuki Roshi speak and look into the eyes of those in the room...I think so much of what he is saying is geared towards those he sees around him in that moment. That has an interesting contrast to what he is speaking about and what has been translated and edited into the text; just considering that throws me for more than a few loops! I think so much of buddhism and how you take it in has to do with how you come to it...the assumptions about life you take for granted and what it takes for those assumptions to be dropped. In that sense it is amazing that so many of us can come together here with so many different perspectives and still be one. In any other learning setting I have ever been a part of the differences between experienced students and beginners creates dichotomies where none need to exist.

As usual, I have no idea if that makes any sense and in the past I'd be embarrassed to put something out there that my mind thinks could be complete garbage out of fear...but for now I'll put it out there and see what develops. To cultivate such an attitude is something I never expected to hold...for that I am grateful to you all.

Gassho,
Scott

[will]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Irina
Are "the same" and "equal" synonyms here?

This might be another way of putting it:

If everything was the same, then it would be one big pile of mush or some such thing. I think it has more to do with the experience of things. Nama Rupa. Each thing presents itself exactly as what it is. S**t does not smell like roses, but somehow s**t and roses are connected by the same source. It's past Androgyny.

Some say we breath the sky, and fan the wind.

Gassho

Will

[Jundo]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Ron is perfectly Ron, Irina 100% Irina, Jeff Precisely Jeff (without one drop of Jeff to add or take away to make him more "Jeffish"), Scott absolutely Scott ... each is a valuable jewel in his/her own way ... and that is true even if each could stand to fix some bad habits, lose a few pounds, get some polish.

It is true even if Ron, Irina, etc. do not realize that perfectly-just-as-it-is-ness for themselves (that is one of the "bad" habits they could use to fix!).

What is also true is that Ron is Irina is Jeff is Scott as much as the fingers on your hand are just your hand, each drop of the sea just the sea.

That is true too even if Ron, Irina, etc. do not realize that yet.

Gassho, Jundo

PS- The foregoing does not apply to Will, who is in a world of his own.

[prg5001]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

In that sense it is amazing that so many of us can come together here with so many different perspectives and still be one.

I think that's very much in the spirit of the book.

Cheers, Paul

[Eika]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

p. 44: "When you don't think about time, you can be very generous with everyone, you can treat people very well. But if you think about time, about today and tomorrow, you cannot be so generous because you will lose time."

This is so true in my life. The closest I ever come to feeling "wise" or generous are the rare times when I can cultivate an attitude that recognizes that whatever it is I am doing now is the thing I'm doing now (not so hard when playing music, hard in most other parts of my life). I have spent most of my years wondering about or thinking about all of the things I must get done in a certain amount of time and all the things I'm missing out on because there is not enough time or I can't be in two places at once. All of this thinking pulls me away from my life: the thing I am doing now. Now that I see this in myself, I'm gradually getting better at staying in time, surfing the wave of the present moment, being willing and able to speak, act, and think in a way that isn't tainted by the imaginary scenarios that I can spin. I think Suzuki Roshi's point is that generosity requires us to adjust our attitude towards time; to let go of it, to drop it so that our actions can proceed unselfishly and spontaneously.

Gassho,
Bill

[CharlesC]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

My notes on the second talk:

I was watching the Suzuki video when something clicked about things being different. Of course they are different. Every thing, every person, is completely and utterly different to everything else. How can they possibly be compared? A comparison would be meaningless, like "apples to pears", and so everything is equally worthwhile in its own right, and because everything is different we cannot say that any one thing is better than any other thing.

Yet at the same time everything is one. The dual perspective of differentiation and equality. I thought of my school physics where we learnt that an electron is both a particle and a wave at the same time, seemingly contradictory yet both perspectives necessary.

"Crooked Cucumber" is the title of the interesting biography of Suzuki by David Chadwick.

Capacity of the human mind:

Potentiality: difference between inherent natural potential, e.g. to be buddha, to help other people, which allows us to be generous to ourselves and everyone; and potential bounded by time, the clock is ticking away, we should not put things off, we have to make choices about who we can help, so we have to be strict with ourselves so as not to waste this potentiality.

Interrelationship: The two sides of love, giving joy and sharing suffering. Sometimes the other person will be receptive to us giving help, other times all we can do is listen to them and share what they are suffering (my tendency, possibly more common in men than women, is to the former, "problem solving" as someone close to me used to call it).

Appropriateness: to emphasize that when relating to someone you should be sensitive to their situation and do what is appropriate (that horrible cliché "skilful means" comes to mind).

A bit about studying, presumably meaning both practice of zazen and study of texts. Different people need different ways of teaching. Your teacher can embue you with the spirit of study but only you can do the work.

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Charles,

I was watching the Suzuki video when something clicked about things being different. Of course they are different. Every thing, every person, is completely and utterly different to everything else. How can they possibly be compared? A comparison would be meaningless, like "apples to pears", and so everything is equally worthwhile in its own right, and because everything is different we cannot say that any one thing is better than any other thing.

OI totally agree here but I think what throws us (at least me off) is that i DO have to discriminate: when picking the fruit at the market I try to choose the best ones or at least not the ones who are not fresh; employers have to choose "the best" person for the job, in the morning I have to choose between different ways to the train station. I "pick and choose" less now even when buying something and do not discard a bouquet of flowers because some of the flowers start withering.

It seems to me (correct me if I am off my base) that this "discrimination" is something our mind does a lot of times "automatically", that this is a trait of a human mind to make decisions based on judgements about what is best for me as a surviving organism. Maybe we took this to new hights developing our own patterns of judgement?

As I see it what you speak of is the "avbsolute value" but when we compare in our daily lives this is the "relative value" we base our decisions on. This withering flower is not "worse" because it is withering, it is just hm... different. I think a lot of confusion comes from us confusing the two notions and a lot of this comes from the language that is "judgemental" these days. We do not just use language for sharing the information that is relevant for our survival but most of what we say are judgements. This said, I just feel like shutting up myself.
What do you think?

Gassho,

Irina

[Jenny]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

I find Irina's question about making judgements interesting. There is a saying "Buddhism in a nutshell -
Stop Picking and Choosing". However we have to make judgements all the time, not to cross the road
when a car is coming, not to eat a poisonous berry off a bush. Maybe there are (the word Charles
isn't keen on) skillful judgements and unskillful ones. And then who makes the choice? Is it our
memory and conditioning which decides?
Jenny

[Jundo]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

There is a saying "Buddhism in a nutshell -
Stop Picking and Choosing". However we have to make judgements all the time, not to cross the road
when a car is coming, not to eat a poisonous berry off a bush.

Choose on channel 1, drop all choices on Channel 2. That's all. Choose the good, avoid the bad on channel 1, drop all thought of "good" and "bad" on channel 2. Live a life in which you can perceive both channels at once, so much so that we say they are "not even two".

That being said, try to make good choices (and avoid the harmful ones).

Do that, and you are guaranteed a pretty smooth life ... even with the unavoidable bumps and despite any bad choices you happen to make.

Gassho, Jundo

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Will and Jundo,

Thanks for your comments, they really helped. If we could embrace our being as we are, accept it, many of us would not have the issue of "low self-esteem". I read about Suzuki Roshi's teacher calling him "You Croocked Cucumber" which by many in my culture could be taken as an insult. Yet he seems to be accepting his being "slow" and just as he is. This is true freedom and self-respect!

Gassho,

Irina

[CharlesC]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Maybe there are (the word Charles
isn't keen on) skillful judgements and unskillful ones.
Jenny

Hi Jenny: it is just the phrase "skillful means" I don't like. For me it always conjures up thoughts of people making excuses for the abusive behaviour of their spiritual leader.

:Charles

[CharlesC]

Re: 2/20- Branching Streams: 2nd Talk - Warm Hand to Warm Hand

Hi Irina: I have no idea of how far we can take non-discrimination but I suspect that even if we just reduce the amount of unnecessary judgement and discrimination in our day-to-day life then we can reduce the amount of "friction" in our life, to use Jundo's metaphor, and so reduce the low-level dissatisfaction unnecessary discrimination causes us all the time. Recent personal examples I can think of: another car too close behind me on the road, instead of entering a long-winded irritable narrative in my mind about BMW drivers, I could just drive more carefully until he passes; the work top in the office kitchen is a mess, instead of being disgusted by it I can just clean it up in a few seconds. And so on, including how we judge ourselves. Difficult to reach that level of acceptance though.

:Charles