2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

[CharlesC]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi Paul: thanks for your response to my questions. As usual, even a short piece like this triggers so many thoughts and questions.

:Charles

[John]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

So, without sticking to some particular way, we open our minds to observe things as-it-is and to accept things as-it-is

Says it all for me really. I am finding that through my practice I am gradually being empowered to open myself to more and more of life's experiences and accept them, pleasant or unpleasant, when formerly I would have tried to avoid possible hurt, or control the outcome.

Gassho,
Doshin

[Tb]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi.

Went to a city close by where they have an "buddhism for beginners course", with some friends who asked if i came along.
Very relaxing, to come to a place where people don't expect you to/expect you not to know anything about buddhism, by the way, and just sit along...

There the man having the course talked about similarities in different "religious texts" and buddhism.
And i came to think about p. 29:

What is the diference between daoist teachings and buddhist teachings? There are many similarities. When a buddhist reads it, it is a buddhist text, and when a daoist reads it, it is a daoist text. Yet it is actually the same thing.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Jundo]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

"Things-as-it-is" puzzles me a little. I don't see how we can perceive "things-as-it-is" without adding our own interpretation. Even when we drop away the sense of the "I" there is a huge amount of processing going on in our brains, transforming the raw data of our senses into something meaningful in ways which have developed over the course of our lifetime as our brain has reacted to experiences. Does it just mean what we experience when we take away the sense of the "I"?

I took out the kitchen trash this morning. Did I first ponder whether it is "real" or not? Or is the smelly trash just what it is? It is perfectly the smelly trash, and if I reason that "ultimately it does not exist", the equally empty cockroaches will soon come.

The trash just "is what it is" when I drop my human demands that it be more or less smelly, to my liking.. Each rotten banana peel just is that rotten banana peel, and cannot be more or less itself.

Same with a sweet flower. Do you first think of its reality before you admire its beauty with your eyes and inhale its scent with your nose, saying "this flower is ultimately like a dream, so I will not waste my time"?

What is more, while the small mind may think "in this world there are more beautiful and less beautiful flowers", when we drop such thoughts, each flower is just perfectly that flower. It is what it is.

But, hand in hand, there is also a perspective by which we drop all thought of trash, stink, cockroaches, bananas and banana peels, flower, sweet and sour, beautiful and ugly, eye and nose. We even drop all idea of trash and flower, Charles and Jundo.

What is there then?

Things-just-as-it-is.

All such perspectives are true in their way, AT ONCE!

Does Suzuki mean "things-as-it-is" contains our desires, that when we sit in zazen there is no fundamental difference between the place we are sitting in and our desires, emotions, thoughts, bodily feelings, etc?

Yes, our emotions are also "just what they are". I am repulsed at the smelly trash, I am frustrated when the bag breaks and the trash falls all over my clean floor. I love flowers. When I drop all resistance to human emotions such as "repulsion, frustration and love", we experience each as "just what it is" in the same way as the trash and the flower are each "just what it is". Each is perfect in that moment, just what it is with not a thing to add or take away (but, mind you, from one perspective at once!)

As well, by also dropping all thought of "repulsion, frustration and love" from mind, what remains? All dropped away.

And when you can see both perspectives at once, the "repulsion, frustration and love" are just not what they were before. Each is perfect and A-OK! Yet "repulsion" when felt hand-in-hand with "all repulsion dropped away" is simply not the same "repulsion" as before (without the perspective of the dropped away).

When we talk about the mountain and the moon we confuse thoughts about something with its "reality", though the reality is not something "out there". It is part of "big mind" though I don't know what "big mind" is. It seems to me a rather nebulous concept in the same way as "God" is. Does it mean a state of mind, for example more spacious and non-judgemental than how we normally think, or does it mean something more metaphysical in which everything is merged together into some sort of mystical oneness?

Throughout the history of Buddhism, different texts and teachers have interpreted concepts such as "Big Mind" or "Buddha Nature" or "Emptyness" or "One's Original Face" in both ways. Some Sutras and Teachers (mostly of the more florid Mahayana) present these concepts as not unlike a "Cosmic Consciousness" or, truly, the "Force" in Star Wars.

Others (the early Theravada Buddhist texts, many others in the Mahayana), present "emptyness" etc. as just our complete, smooth, frictionless union with life when we drop all ideas of separation ... the spacious, non-judgmental interbeing by which all thoughts of Charles and of the "not-Charles world" are dropped ... and thus all friction vanishes (you need two things bumping into each other to have friction, and this is so much a "dropping away" that even the ideas "one" and "two" are dropped away!).

(be aware that different Buddhist books and different teachings, ancient and modern, come in these different flavors based on the author's inclination)

So, WHICH IS IT? ANSWER!

While you are doing that, I have to go take out the trash.

Gassho, Jundo

[CharlesC]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi Jundo: well... I don't suppose an answer is necessary... but if we have to put it into words "complete, smooth, frictionless union with life" works better for me. The fewer cosmic and supernatural concepts and entities the better, for me at least.

Thanks for your reply. It helped a lot.

:Charles

[Kent]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Pg. 33

We say that Zen is not something to talk about. It is what you experience in a true sense. It is difficult. But anyway this a is difficult world, so don't worry. Wherever you go you have problems. You should confront those problems. It is much better to have these problems of practice rather than some other mixed-up kinds of problems

We sit , we take what we gain from our practice and in put it into action. We sit and a billion times and a billion times more we confront the reality which is this single connected moment. Gassho Kent

[Shugen]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

So far, I am really enjoying this book! I was particularly struck by the image of the "absolute" and the "relative shaking hands. What a great way of expressing it! Like many others have already stated, there is just something about this practice that feels "right". Yet, when you try and express it, it disappears.

Ron

[shogyo]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

I am interested in Suzuki Roshi's comments related to strict practice following on from the incident with the spider

When replying to the question asking for examples that apply to our individual lives Suzuki Roshi says When you get up you should just get up. When everyone sleeps you should sleep

He then goes on to say To live in this world is not easy. He then says "you should be ready to kill something even if you are a Buddhist".

I've grappled with this question for some time as on one level it seems to come into conflict with the Buddhist precepts and yet on another he is absolutely right to say that it is impossible to live in this world without killing something. My understanding is that this comes down to intention and that in the spider example their is no intention to kill therefore the karma created will be commensurate with the action. However to say that' you should be ready to kill something even if you are a Buddhist' seems to imply that there is the intention to kill.

I'd be grateful for other peoples perspective on this

Gassho
Brian

[Fuken]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

I am interested in Suzuki Roshi's comments related to strict practice following on from the incident with the spider

When replying to the question asking for examples that apply to our individual lives Suzuki Roshi says When you get up you should just get up. When everyone sleeps you should sleep

He then goes on to say To live in this world is not easy. He then says "you should be ready to kill something even if you are a Buddhist".

I've grappled with this question for some time as on one level it seems to come into conflict with the Buddhist precepts and yet on another he is absolutely right to say that it is impossible to live in this world without killing something. My understanding is that this comes down to intention and that in the spider example their is no intention to kill therefore the karma created will be commensurate with the action. However to say that' you should be ready to kill something even if you are a Buddhist' seems to imply that there is the intention to kill.

I'd be grateful for other peoples perspective on this

Gassho
Brian

A close friend or family member in pain who is begging for death, a mad man with a bomb strapped to his chest running toward a crowded venue, a child molester in the act of doing his nefarious deed, etc…

Or a deluded thought.


Gassho, “Fuken” Jordan

[Tb]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

However to say that' you should be ready to kill something even if you are a Buddhist' seems to imply that there is the intention to kill.

Hi.

To be ready/prepared to kill and to intend to kill isn't the same thing.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Bansho]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi,

I came across a translation of the Sandokai on Zen Forum International, which is quite interesting as it gives a completely different twist to a few things in comparison with other versions I've seen. Gregory Wonderwheel, who has done the translation, was kind enough to give me his permission to post it here:

AN AGREEMENT FOR PARTICIPATING TOGETHER
– CAN TONG QI (TS’AN-T’UNG-CH’I) (J. SANDOKAI)
By Shitou Xiqian (Shih-t’ou Hsi-ch’ien, J. Sekito Kisen)
(b.700 - d.790)

The mind of the great sage of the land of India
has been intimately and mutually handed down from west to east.
A person's roots are sharp or dull;
the Way has no Northern or Southern ancestors.
The mysterious source is shining and clean in the light;
the branching streams are flowing and pouring in the dark.
Grasping at primary phenomena is bewilderment;
agreeing with Principle is still not enlightenment.
Each and every gate corresponds to circumstances,
revolving with each other and not revolving with each other.
Revolving and alternating are mutually entangled,
they do not rely on remaining in place.
The root of form is distinguished by substance and appearance;
the primal sound is differentiated as joyful or painful.
High and middle words unite in the dark,
clean and dirty sentences, in the brightness.
The four great elements return to their natures
like a child to its mother.
The heat of the fire; the waving of the wind;
the wet of the water; the solidity of the earth.
The colors of the eye; the sounds of the ear;
the fragrances of the nose; the salt and sour of the tongue.
This is the way with each and every thing;
according to the roots the leaves separate and spread out.
Roots and branches necessarily return to the ancestral origin;
venerated and vulgar, these are used in speech.
Right in the middle of the light there is dark;
don’t use the mutuality of darkness to meet it.
Right in the middle of the dark there is light;
don’t use the mutuality of the light to see it.
Light and dark are mutual polarities,
for example, like front and back steps.
The ten thousand things naturally have their function,
and are regarded in the use and placement of words.
Phenomena exist like the joining of a box and lid.
Principle responds like the support of the sharp point of an arrow.
In receiving words you should meet the ancestors,
and not establish rules by yourself.
If your contacting eye does not meet the Way,
how do you know the path by using your feet?
Progress is not near or far;
bewilderment causes the distance from mountains and rivers.
Sincerely, I say to people who participate in the profound depths,
from brightness and shadow, there are none who have ferried across in vain.

###

Here are some comments I made on it there (sorry for quoting myself):

I like your selection of the word 'participation' in the title, as it implies action on the part of the practitioner, i.e. it's not something we just passively take note of as an intellectual exercise, but rather something to actively participate in. Also, when I read your translation of the last sentence about 'participating in the profound depths from light and shadow' I couldn't help but think of Hee-Jin Kim's description of awakening not as a transition from a state of delusion to a final, static state of enlightenment, but rather as the dynamic interplay between the focal points of delusion and enlightenment as a continual process. A continual process of repeatedly falling into delusion and subsequent awakening which we actively participate in during Zazen.

The entire thread can be found here: http://www.zenforuminternational.org...3&p=4222#p4222

Also, Gregory has a complete translation with the original Chinese as well as some notes which I found very insightful here: http://home.pon.net/wildrose/promise.htm

Gassho
Bansho

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

I noticed that reading deep texts at different moments in life different passages "speak" to me.

This time around it was the same one John commented on that really seems relevant:

So, without sticking to some particular way, we open our minds to observe things as-it-is and to accept things as-it-is

This "particular" way is something that really sticks and becomes second skin. I was touched by how Suzuki Roshi spoke of moving to a different mountain should Tassajara be lost and having things differently there. Every day for the last week we hear on the news here in Sweden about the fate of Saab or Volvo and the arguments for and against the government steping in and helping General Motors save the car factories and ensure that thousands of people in Sweden don't lose their jobs. We hear of the long tradition and people working on those factories for decades.

While I find it sad that so many people lose their jobs these days, I see the endeavors to postpone the ineviatble for the sake of having it because this is the way it has been for a while as resistance to accept things-as-it-is. We have been spoiled here but things running pretty smoothly.

Moving to a different mountain can be hard, especially in the beginning. We might have to learn cultivate a different kind of soil (learn to do something else instead of cars) on a new place. But how far will lamenting and arguing take us?

This said, I often notice that my first reaction to a change no matter how small is often a contraction inside, a tightness that comes from the feeling of uncertainty and resistance to simply open up and see that just because it is new it does not mean it is "bad". It just means it is different. When I remind myself of this, it doesn't always make the experience more comfortable but then, even when I still feel uncomfortable, somehow I am OK. I don't know if this makes sense to someone else.

Gassho,

Irina

Gassho,

Irina

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

My understanding is that this comes down to intention and that in the spider example their is no intention to kill therefore the karma created will be commensurate with the action. However to say that' you should be ready to kill something even if you are a Buddhist' seems to imply that there is the intention to kill.

I'd be grateful for other peoples perspective on this

Gassho
Brian

Hi Brian,

I don't interpret here "to be ready to kill" as "the intention to kill". I read it as "To be prepared that you might have to kill (unintentionally)". Sort of like with the Bodhisattva vows. I think I have "to be prepared" to break a vow, that is to realise and accept that it is impossible not to break it or else I will never dare taking one and trying my best at keeping it.

Gassho,

Irina

[CinnamonGal]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Does this look like a spam? :lol:

When you do something without any feeling of having done something, then that is you, yourself. You're completely with everyone and you don't feel self-conscious. That is self-respect.

Never thought of self-respect this way but I recognise the "doing something without any feeling". It reminded me of Stanislavski's words: "Love art in yourself but not yourself in art" (if my memory serves me right). Sometimes when someone came and gave compliments for something I did "without any feeling of having done something" and asked me if I felt proud I could not understand what they were talking about and later wondered if I had bad self-esteem and could not be proud of something I achieved. Yet on some level I did not feel like I was the one who did it and the word "proud" felt irrelevant. I guess it did not make much sense to me to take pride in doing something I did not even know I was doing. :wink:


Gassho,

Irina

[Undo]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

I have enjoyed the first chapter very much.

If we also change the words "difficult" and "problems" with "beauty" this part as well as some others mentioned rang home,

Zen is not something to talk about. It is what you experience in a true sense. It is difficult. But anyway this is a difficult world, so don't worry. Wherever you go you have problems. You should confront your problems. It may be much better to have these problems of practice rather than some other mixed-up kinds of problems.

I also understood the intention to kill as explained nice and clearly by Irina.

Gassho

Undo