2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

[Jundo]

Hello Readers!

An auspicious day to begin our discussion of Master Shunryu Suzuki's "BRANCHING STREAM FLOW IN THE DARKNESS, Zen Talks on the Sandokai"

We will begin with the FIRST TALK: "THINGS-AS-IT-IS", pages 27 to 36. Please also read the introductions, if you have not had a chance as yet. Of course, it is best to buy the book, but if you need, the talks appear to be available online here:

http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:2xJ ... =clnk&cd=1

I also ask you to please read this ADDITIONAL ARTICLE on the Sandokai to get a general overview. It is an interesting little article by Sekkei Harada Roshi :

http://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/kokusai/jo ... e14_03.htm

OPTIONAL ADDITIONAL MATERIAL: Zoketsu Norman Fischer Roshi, a poet, psychologist and teacher in Suzuki Roshi's Lineage, has a series of audio talks on "Branching Streams" at his website. Here is the first.

A series of talks on Suzuki Roshi's Branching Streams Flow in the Darkness, Zen Talks on the Sandokai. These talks are on an important Soto Zen text whose theme is the interpenetration of oneness and diversity, a cornerstone of Suzuki Roshi’s understanding. Talk one includes historical background and meaning of the Sandokai, and an initial discussion of the first few sentences.

http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php?It ... io-272-142

All of the above materials are the same ... just different. :wink:

Gassho, Jundo

[Eika]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Right off the bat I can tell I'm going to like this book (not that liking it is important).

His explanation of not one/not two on p. 28 was very nice. The term "whole being" is a great way to present that. I'm still going over my notes to let that one sink in.

I like Suzuki Roshi's point about taking our desires into account. I feel like that is what I'm spending most of my time doing now, learning to see how my desire creeps into every activity. Not that it is bad, it is simply present and, therefore, a part of all that I do. If I can get to the point of accounting for it all the time . . . well, there's the rub.

Later he writes, "We each have out own unique personal tendencies. But if you think to get rid of them, or if you try not to think or not to hear the sound of the stream during zazen, it is not possible. Let your ears hear without trying to hear. Let the mind think without trying to think and without trying to stop it. That is practice."

Reminds me of the "expansive sky does not hinder the floating clouds."

The remarkable thing, I think, about Suzuki's writing is that he is able to explain so many complexities in such compact and simple language. I don't mean simple as in lesser, merely uncomplicated or unassuming.

I'm anxious to hear what others got from this . . .

Gassho,
Bill

[Gregor]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Oh cool . . . I've not checked in at Treeleaf for a week or two and viola the first day I'm back the book club is starting up again. Neato, I'll make sure to get started tonight after I get some laundry going and fix one of my fencing weapons in preparation for an important competition this weekend.

I'll try to take those experiences as a "things-as-it-is" moment.

gassho,

Greg

[Tb]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi.

A funny thing is i was looking like crazy for the drum story a couple a days ago, i knew i had read ity, but i couldn't find it.
And then last night i read this weeks chapter and voila!
Funny thing the things we find are always in the last place we looked...

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Shogen]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi
Master Dogen taught that you," must drop body and mind". Master Nishijima taught," while sitting in the mountain still state without physical perception or mental consideration is enlightenment." To me Shunryu Suzuki Roshi intrepreting Sandokai is giving precise examples of those teachings for us to use in our practice as well as everyday affairs. All roads used to lead to Rome now they lead to Zazen! Gassho Zak

[Dosho]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi all,

I've read through everything twice and listened to Fischer Roshi's entire talk and I get the feeling I haven't even begun to grasp the full meaning...and perhaps I never will.

The most striking passage in the chapter for me was on page 32 when Suzuki Roshi discusses self respect. Much like the quote from Aitken Roshi in my signature line, you don't achieve self respect by trying to gain self respect...it is the process of dropping that which we've accumualted over a lifetime. I've wondered lately how far that can really go...if we can capture our "true" selves or even what one might call our "original" selves. But it doesn't really matter because neither can be a goal as such...they are what they are and are what they will become by just sitting.

As Suzuki Roshi says, "When you speak or act it will be just to express yourself. That is complete self respect. To practice zazen is to attain this kind of self respect." I've only been sitting zazen for a little less than a year now and I have gleaned many truths over that time by not trying to glean anything. For quite awhile I tried to push out the thoughts I had during zazen, only to realize one day that doing so was the opposite of letting them go. More recently, I was troubled by the amount of thoughts that arose in my head during zazen, but I realized that the worry was nearly the same as trying to push them out. It doesn't matter if thoughts arise...the point is not to judge them as we do in our daily lives or to trip the automatic responses we have cultivated over the years. In zazen, we let go and do not judge...only then can something result but that is never the aim, never the goal. The goal is just to sit.

I'm sure I will have more to say, but that's a start. As Bill said, I'm excited to hear what other people have to say.

Gassho,
Scott (Dosho)

[jrh001]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi,

Just a few notes from talk#1

Soto Zen has a gentle quality.
San - "three" (usual meaning), "things" (in this context)
do - "sameness"
kai - "befriend" (my term, called "shaking hands" in the book)
Another reference explains the meaning of Sandokai as "difference, equality and harmony" - http://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/kokusai/jo ... e14_03.htm
The many beings are facets of one being. (Individual fingers on the same hand in one of Jundo's posts - but what is the hand?)
Small mind is limited by desires, emotions and discriminative thought. We should learn to let go of (not to grasp onto) desires, emotions and discriminative thought.
Acceptance is observation without judgement = seeing "things-as-it-is"

John

[Eika]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

've read through everything twice and listened to Fischer Roshi's entire talk and I get the feeling I haven't even begun to grasp the full meaning...and perhaps I never will.

I know the feeling, Scott. Much of the time with Zen teachings I get the feeling that the teaching is true but I can't say that I understand it. This used to bother me and I would spend hours rehashing something that seemed intuitively correct but beyond my mental capacities. I think somewhere along the way, some of that drive (but definitely not all) got beaten out of me by the teachings. I'm more content now to let the teaching seem true while not intellectually understand it. The Sandokai has been a favorite of mine for a while. I feel more of an affinity to it than most of the other classic Zen writings. I bought Master Sheng-Yen's book The Infinite Mirror several years ago and have repeatedly returned to it, each time puzzled by this beautiful old poem. I didn't know until Jundo chose Suzuki's book for the book club that it even existed.

I'm eagerly awaiting the talk that addresses the arrow points meeting in mid-air. I have no clue what it means, but it is a striking image.

Bill

[BrianW]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hello all,

I completed all the readings, but it was the podcast by Fischer Roshi that really pulled it all together for me. I was really impressed with his discussion of the title of the poem and it started to spin off in a million directions in my mind.

Fisher Roshi points outs it is possible to make a list for San and one for Do. San being such concepts as ordinary world, form, confusion whereas Do is the opposite, absolute world, emptiness, peace. I may be wrong on this point, but Suzuki Roshi’s “Things as it is” appear to me to be Do and “Things as they are” seem to be San. I would like to hear others’ opinions on this. The Suzuuki Roshi book mentioned that Sandokai is the same name as a Taoist text and it appears that San and Do have some connection to ying and yang, but again I could be off on this.

Kai is the integration of the two and Fisher Roshi states that in life it is often hard to resolve these two. He mentions that we can take Sandokai as a “koan of life” and contemplate how we get stuck in one side or the other in our practice. This brought to mind how sometimes after zazen I am so relaxed that I get a bit irritated when someone presents me with a problem or conflict immediately after my zazen. Applying this notion of “being stuck” it is almost as if I want to stay in this nice relaxed empty place and am a bit ticked at someone messing up my state of mind. The “Kai” for me to work on would be more fully integrate my zazen state to everyday life.

What a fantastic book but, I seemed to have gotten stuck on the title!

Gassho,
BrianW

[Jenny]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

As I often feel a bit like the dummy in the back row of the class with a hand up all the time wanting
to know the "answers", it comes as a relief to read what Bill says about knowing intuitively that what is being taught is true without necessarily understanding it.

Each year our small group is visited by a Zen teacher from San Francisco Zen Centre, and last year I
happened to mention to him that I found "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind", difficult to understand, and he just
gazed at me in astonishment!

I already had this present book but had given up on it, so am now having another go at studying it with
the Book Club and look forward to hearing all the views and responses from the members.

Jenny

[Bansho]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi everyone,

We say that Zen is not something to talk about. It is what you experience in a true sense. It is difficult. But anyway this is a difficult world, so don't worry. Wherever you go you have problems. You should confront your problems. It may be much better to have these problems of practice rather than some other mixed-up kinds of problems.

This final passage of the first talk really made me smile. Zen won't solve all of our problems. It may - and perhaps should(!) - make us aware of problems we weren't aware of before or even create problems we didn't have before beginning with this practice. Such is life, and such is our practice. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Gassho
Bansho

[james]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

I was also compelled by Suzuki Roshi's description of self respect, I had never thought of it this way before but as soon as I read the words, I knew it was right.

Gassho

James

[chicanobudista]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Each year our small group is visited by a Zen teacher from San Francisco Zen Centre, and last year I
happened to mention to him that I found "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind", difficult to understand, and he just
gazed at me in astonishment!

Sorry. OT....Astonished? Its both difficult and not. :mrgreen: Personally, I bought that book in 1993 or so. This was way before Buddhists in the internet, me practicing, etc. I picked up because I wanted an intro book into Zen Buddhism. After all, it does say "Beginner's" in the title. :wink: I got stuck in the first chapter and couldn't understand the rest. Fast forward almost ten years, reading more about Buddhism and having done some meditation practice, I picked up the book again. It made way more sense.

[Jenny]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Am ashamed to say have just looked flyleaf of book and I bought it in 1983 - 26 years ago! Yes, I have
to say some of it makes more sense now, but maybe the way Zen masters talk in riddles at times keeps
us on our toes!
Jenny

[Jundo]

Re: 2/13 Branching Streams: 1st Talk - Things-As-It-Is

Hi,

Part of the problem with Zen Mind (and with many books by Japanese teachers ... my own Gudo Roshi is certainly no exception) is that their English is poor (not their fault, but Suzuki like Nishijima often struggled with English), that Japanese sentence structure is very indirect in making statements, that essay structure is "mushy" (essays and talks tend to meander, while most public speakers in the west keep the train on the tracks), and ... gee... this is Zen, and some of these ideas are spagehtti nailed to the wall even for the teacher!

On top of that, Suzuki's students RECREATED the talks in the books from handwritten notes taken during the talks and really poor quality tape recordings. The transcribers mostly did not speak Japanese, so were hindered in that too.

Reminds me of when (true story) I first came to Japan and met my first Japanese "Zen Master" (my first teacher, Azuma Roshi of Sojiji). I promptly proceeded to ask him the big questions, one of which was "What is Time?"

His answer: "Now 5:30"

Wow, I thought. HOW PROFOUND. He must mean "time is just what it is!" and it is "Now!"

Instead, I later found out that his English was not so good, and he just thought I was asking what time it was. ops:

Lots of stuff like that in Beginners Mind I think.

Gassho, Jundo