New Buddhist Path - INTRODUCTION: In Quest of a Modern Buddhism

[Jundo]

First, there is a small but influential movement of people trying to make a secular dharma. Stephen Batchelor is the most prominent, but if you look around, you can see similar approaches in a number of younger Zen teachers. This is more common in Zen, because Zen tends to be the type of Buddhism that has the fewest trappings. Read Brad Warner's books, or some of the other younger Zen teachers, and you'll see that the reverence for tradition takes second place to a search for truth.

...

Jundo has said many times that he is - and I'm paraphrasing - agnostic about rebirth. And that's probably the most esoteric aspect of Zen, when you think about it.

If I may say where I stand (and sit ) on this question, I gave an interview recently on the "Secular-Buddhist Podcast", advocating a Middle Way that does not throw the Baby Buddha out with the bathwater. Basically, keep old stuff if it has some utility, power, beauty to the traditional belief or practice, but steer away from more unbelievable or superstitious beliefs. I incorporate the new by the same standard. So, for example, in a recent talk I spoke of "the 'hungry ghosts' who are never satisfied and exist within the greed of all of our hearts in this world, whether or not they truly exist (as I rather doubt, although I am not the last word) in some so-called outside realm". Likewise, we have an "Oryoki" group here to Practice the dance of mindful, grateful and ritualistic eating even though it is an ancient monastic practice for meals because it is simply a powerful and valuable practice. The same for sewing a Rakusu.

Here is that Podcast ...

http://secularbuddhism.org/2015/10/24/episode-233-jundo-cohen-religious-secular-buddhism-the-best-of-all-worlds/

And my "Manifesto" of "RELIGIO-SECULAR BUDDHISM"

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13900-Secular-Buddhist-Podcast-Jundo-Religious-Secular-Buddhism-The-Best-of-All-Worlds

Anyway, that is where I am right now.

I was surprised recently when watching a video on YouTube about Kinhin to see a Zen center where the altar had a picture of Dogen. (It was a very nice picture, by the way.) I am more interested in worshipping an idea than a person.

We have pictures of Dogen, Nishijima, Bodhidharma and such hung, not for worship, but as a re-MIND-er of their lives and Teachings and this Practice. I do not think it much different from having a picture of my late mother in the house. All beloved, respected and honored. In fact, the Buddha statue on the altar is a piece of wood that serves much the same function for me. I do not consider what we do "worship". When I bow, it is more a humble and grateful "thank you" and reminder and pledge to keep on with this Practice.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[dod]

Thank you Jundo and everyone for this discussion.

I'm glad to be practicing at a time when lay practice is emphasized and also when gender isn't a barrier. I'm also glad to have this community online. So my take on how Buddhism is changing to fit the modern world is positive. The use of Buddhist based practices in psychology, such as the mindfulness based practices are good for psychology, but lose some of their original meaning, such as being a part of an ethical framework. Still, these practices may make Buddhism more approachable for people who are interested in going deeper into practice.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

Hi Onkai – and everyone,

I also feel grateful for the emphasis on lay practice and gender not being a barrier. It is known many people come to this practice to ease their dukkha but you don't have to stay there. And if you do stay there, and buddhism is helping you see your "self", easing suffering and the like, that isn't so bad. We have a greater chance at deepening our practice, weaving in an ethical framework if it is accessible in the first place.

I enjoyed this bit of the introduction, particularly the notion of a building collective wisdom:

"... Instead, the best that any of us can hope for is to contribute to the ongoing conversation, in the belief that a collective wisdom is beginning to emerge, which will be something more than the sum of separate voices." p3.

It's wonderful to get the opportunity to "sit in a circle" with you and discuss these things. Thank you all,

Gassho,

Jessie
~sat today~

[Toun]

Hi everyone,

I think that the core of Buddhist teachings such as the four noble truths, and the eightfold path challenges us to live a less centered life, acknowledging the suffering of all sentient beings while manifesting compassion and not harming others. Many have found it to be a practical way as we live in a world that is steeped in dualism. Humanity has deep political, religious, social and cultural differences which make living on our small planet a real challenge. Many religions have had to reinterpret dogmas and doctrines in the light of science and many long-held beliefs are being challenged. Others have decided to entrench themselves into fundamentalism which creates a sense of exclusivism which causes more division.

As for my personal practice, I will occasionally chant, bow, ring a bell, and have a small Buddha statue on my bookshelf. It creates a framework for reminding me of my practice and connects me to the richness of a tradition that spans across millennia. I have never really considered Buddhism as a religion "per se" but more as a path to follow. Instead of trying to find answers looking "upward" the dharma teaches us to go within ourselves and observe our minds and how we relate to other sentient beings.

Great comments from everyone and it's interesting to see varying viewpoints on the topic.

Gassho
Tōun
Sat2day

[Mp]

Hi everyone,

I think that the core of Buddhist teachings such as the four noble truths, and the eightfold path challenges us to live a less centered life, acknowledging the suffering of all sentient beings while manifesting compassion and not harming others. Many have found it to be a practical way as we live in a world that is steeped in dualism. Humanity has deep political, religious, social and cultural differences which make living on our small planet a real challenge. Many religions have had to reinterpret dogmas and doctrines in the light of science and many long-held beliefs are being challenged. Others have decided to entrench themselves into fundamentalism which creates a sense of exclusivism which causes more division.

As for my personal practice, I will occasionally chant, bow, ring a bell, and have a small Buddha statue on my bookshelf. It creates a framework for reminding me of my practice and connects me to the richness of a tradition that spans across millennia. I have never really considered Buddhism as a religion "per se" but more as a path to follow. Instead of trying to find answers looking "upward" the dharma teaches us to go within ourselves and observe our minds and how we relate to other sentient beings.

Great comments from everyone and it's interesting to see varying viewpoints on the topic.

Gassho
Tōun
Sat2day

Very nice Toun, I like what you have to say here ... I agree that Buddhism and Zen are more a way of life and how to engage with it. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Ryumon]

I have never really considered Buddhism as a religion "per se" but more as a path to follow.

Exactly. And this is the heart of the question. If it were a religion, then things would be very different. (Though many people do see it as a religion.)

Gassho,

Kirk

[Risho]

Not to argue semantics, but maybe it would be important to define what we mean by religion. Some would argue that a religion is one's path in life.

What is a religion?

Why do you think Buddhism is or is not a religion?

We have to be careful in expressing our opinions as facts because they are opinions laden with things we take for granted. For example, although I have no belief in reincarnation, we have to acknowledge that there are sects of Buddhism that do. There are sects of Buddhism that think Zen isn't even Buddhism. And all of these sects are Buddhism. So I think we may not view it as a religion, but Kirk you are right many do. So I've basically stated in a paragraph what you said in one sentence; I'm wordy. hahahah

Anyways, I think our culture tends to view religions negatively, but I would argue that they don't have to be. I would say Buddhism is a religion in that it is a path that one treads in life, but it is unlike other religions with some Godhead. I would also argue that it is unlike a religion because it's more of a path than just a faith. I mean it's a living practice; that's the coolest thing about it in my opinion. One of the things about Zen that I love is that it's a practice, it's something you do, study, etc. It's not like you sit in a pew and get preached at (I know I'm simplifying here) but lay practitioners take an active part and own their practice.

I think when religion is brought up people associate that with loss of one's autonomy and better judgement, so people immediately hop on the bandwagon of saying something isn't a religion to validate it, but I would argue that Zen's key points are autonomy and our own discernment and that it is still a religion from certain viewpoints as well. In the end, I don't have an answer; I can see it as both a religion and as not a religion.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[martyrob]

I really enjoyed this book; it brought into relief many of the things I have been thinking about recently, and I echo some of those concerns of Kirk. So thanks Jundo for bringing this to the book club.
I have no idea how Buddhism is going to develop in the West nor do I really know what Buddhism is – it's an idea that is unfolding in front of me – I'm not sure it will ever stop. I have a feeling that the divide between Mahayana and Theravada will diminish as that sectarianism no longer seems appropriate. Zen is already co-opting some of the practices from the Theravadan tradition and I'm sure the concept of the Bodhisattva will migrate the other way - these ideas are just too compelling to be limited to one tradition. Eventually, I think the boundaries between the traditions will erode and that won't be a bad thing, there are many practices within the Insight movement which have real value. This is one of the great opportunities that Buddhism's development in the West offers.

I'm not sure what Buddhism's core value are. It depends where you're sitting as to what's a core value. If I'm a Tea Party Christian, I'm going to read the Bible as having different core values than if I'm a Latin- American Liberation theologian. In the West our societies are more pluralistic and therefore our views less homogeneous – we come at these issue with more baggage. We already see that with the difference highlighted in 'Lion's Roar' between conservative and progressive Buddhists. The dharma is not immune to confirmation bias.
I do see this as a blind spot within Buddhism as a whole – although it applies to all the great religions – that somehow this faith is a repository of eternal Truth's rather than a collection of meanings contingent on the social context of it's time. It's a sort of contradiction because surely all Truths are empty? There is an attempt, notably by Stephen Bachelor, to locate the core teachings free of all the traditional, cultural excrescences to somehow make it fit for purpose in a modern, 21st Century. I'm not sure that this is not a fool's errand because how would you decide that the core teachings are more suitable to today than the excrescences? What if they weren't? Who decides?

There is a possibility, and I'm sure this is likely because it's so hard to resist, that Buddhism will become eviscerated, rather like yoga has, as a commodity. A sort of Buddhism-lite without too much rigour, that comes in at £9.99 per session with a free zafu in this year's colours. There's an inevitability about that because of the hegemonic nature of modern capitalism and it's commodification of all that is drawn into it's maw. We are already seeing some of this with the mindfulness movement. How we respond to this will go some way to how Buddhism will develop. Do we retreat back into our monastic redoubts of tradition, conservatism and elitism or do we embrace a revolutionary culture of awakening as expounded by David Loy, that side steps the buddhist-lite?

What initially drew me to this practice and still hold me is that nowhere else have I ever come across such an honest and penetrative account of what it is to be a human. Not the neuroscience or the psychology or biology or the philosophical analysis of rationality but the deep down, dirty, stink of life. What it is to be a bag of flesh and fluid with all its terror, fear, panic, anger and love. Other religions are concerned with defining the immaculate face of the Divine, Buddhism looks the other way and gets down in the dirt with the rest of us.

It is this profound understanding of human frailty where Buddhism has the potential to be most revolutionary. I'm sure there will be other Buddhisms to suit all tastes and life-styles but the one I'm pitching for is that which has the potential to transform society both politically – not Trump/Clinton, but issues of poverty, climate change and social justice - through the radical transformation of ourselves. It's not much to ask is it, really- that this practice should radically transform all of humanity?
Wishing all well,

Martyn

Sat Today

[Jakuden]

What initially drew me to this practice and still hold me is that nowhere else have I ever come across such an honest and penetrative account of what it is to be a human. Not the neuroscience or the psychology or biology or the philosophical analysis of rationality but the deep down, dirty, stink of life. What it is to be a bag of flesh and fluid with all its terror, fear, panic, anger and love. Other religions are concerned with defining the immaculate face of the Divine, Buddhism looks the other way and gets down in the dirt with the rest of us.

[emoji120]

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday



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[Ryumon]

New Buddhist Path - INTRODUCTION: In Quest of a Modern Buddhism

We already have Buddhism lite: it is the "mindfulness" movement that has stripped everything that is not meditation from Buddhism. This is heavily promoted by the Buddhist industrial complex-the book and magazine publishers-because, even if their intentions are good, they still need to make a buck.

Gassho,

Kirk


I know nothing.

[Myosha]

Hello,

Four truths.

Eight-fold Path.

Heal.

Pass it on.


Sheesh!


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

P.S. Being a new buddhist is akin to new born. Welcome.

[Byrne]

I view Buddhism as a religion because it has given me the similiar sense of ballast as my Christian, Jewish, and Muslim brothers and sisters have. Buddhism has helped me become more compassionate and tolerant of differing spiritual orientations. Most importantly,, understanding the massive plurality of Buddhist perspectives has revealed the plurality of perspectives within other religions to me.

But if ya wanna call it a philosophy or path that's cool too because that isn't incorrect. The wisdom of the sangha manifests itself in many ways.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Kaisui]

Hello all,

This is my first group discussion on Buddhist theory and so I'm very excited to be doing this book club. I haven't been sure of where to jump in with the forums and this seems like a good place.

I wrote down so many ideas and thoughts when I read that Introduction, I hope I can contain them well enough.

This reading was timely for me as just a few days before I had picked up a book on Humanistic Buddhism at a used bookshop and tried to read it, but then put it away when I came to the conclusion (and I admit I may be wrong) that it was not targeted at someone of my background but for a different cultural background, namely people in China who subscribe to Confucian philosophy. I felt the first section of this book on honouring one's parents was dictating too heavily on honouring and obeying them without question and without regard for exceptional cases where the parents may mistreat you or indeed instruct you to do un-Buddhist things. I realised from a later chapter that the author was trying to counteract a view that Buddhists do not honour their parents because they shave their heads and run away from home to the monastery, and so he was providing counter-examples.

The point I am trying to make here is that I can see that the message of Buddhism needs to be adapted to different audiences, because each different person has a different point from which she is going to start, to be convinced, to take the easiest step toward the 'truth'. However, the more the message is adapted to an audience the more the adaptation risks being seen as the message itself, i.e. looking at the finger pointing at the moon. So I guess my response to the question that David Loy poses on which 'side' to choose is that we can choose any side we want to long as we keep stressing that none of the sides are the message and the message needs to be seen past the words.

I look forward to reading more of the book!

Gassho,
Charity
SatToday

P.S. I had more notes but they were mainly on links and parallels I have made to the social work course at university, where we cover a lot of sociology concepts. If anyone wants to engage on that, in particular what is the meaning of 'modernity' according to this book and is this book proposing postmodern ideas (and does Buddhism have a lot in common with postmodern ideas) etc.

[Jishin]

https://youtu.be/uMUgIQ0Heag

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Hoseki]

Ok first a sidebar: I start losing the point when abstract and "what-if" scenarios get thrown out about what if Hitler meditated or was your weatherman, etc. Ok, I'm being an ass. I'm sure there's a point to those exercises, but I don't really get it. As a segue :P, something that I love about this practice that resonates with me, and why I practice at all is that it's so practical. I think that is something that Zen has always had going for it; it's practicality. It's sort of a form of Buddhism that's focused on the core practice as opposed to all the added ritual and so on. But yeah, I know it has a crapload of its own oddities. I sort of like those too in a way, even though I'm not a traditional Buddhist by any stretch. I'm more of a Bodhidharma/Dogen than a let's sing Koombayah type of dude, but there is room for both.

I want to absolutely clarify that what I'm saying applies only to me. I can't speak for all of Buddhism, nor should I. Similarly, and this is sort of off topic, I don't think a Sangha or any group should speak for me. I think Zen has room for liberal, conservative, etc opinions. I don't think any political views should be assumed just because someone practices Zen. And I don't want Treeleaf to speak on my behalf, and I don't have any right to speak on it's behalf.

Ok so back to my sad attempt at making a point. There is a lot of ritual, etc. in zen too. There's a lot of cultural "baggage" that I don't really "dig" all of that too much (qualify: some times); I'm more for a secularized approach as well as Kirk and Byrne have mentioned. For example, I'm not going to be living in a monastery anytime soon. I don't really have time for imitation in my life. I'm not trying to be someone else. I'm not trying to wear more costumes. Believe me, I play enough roles to add another one.

Now I'm not saying that practitioners that do like doing that are just wearing costumes; I think there are genuine practitioners here and elsewhere who do like that stuff. I met Jundo, and I think he's one of the most down to earth people I've met, and he is how he is here, which is also why I'm here. I'm not trying to pander, but his down to earth teaching appeals to me and motivates me to practice. At the same time, the more my practice matures, the more I have to be honest in my practice here.

So I'm absolutely just speaking for myself, which I think is something that maybe is showing how Buddhism is adapting to our culture here. I think it's going to be applicable to someone like me who really doesn't want to have 3 robes and a bowl. I think my views (which come from my culture) that questions authority, values individualism, etc. will have an impact on Buddhism.

I work in the corporate world, and I'm very much a practicing Buddhist, although I don't really identify myself as being a Buddhist, but I am one. I took the precepts, I try to live by them, I have a regular practice. I love the practice, or I wouldn't do it. But I'm not a smiling zen monk in a mountain. I live in the suburbs, I love technology, I own way too much stuff, I'm not a vegetarian and I don't aspire to be one. I like beer. Sometimes I drink too much.

But zen fits. Zen helps me. I love how I can sit or bring that attitude into my life of being present amidst whatever chaos is occurring, or how I can catch myself getting angry and let it subside (sometimes, ok sometimes. lol) instead of feeding it. So it's practical. But those are just a couple of small and shortsighted and obvious examples. There's so much to this that is difficult to explain.

All of that said, I also see a danger in "boiling" Zen down too much. If you boil something too long, it loses all of its flavor. There is absotively, posilutely an important place for ceremony and ritual and robes and liturgy, etc. I see the value in it, and I really do like that part too, so it's a balance. One of the things I like doing during Ango is chanting more, lighting a candle and incense when I sit, wearing my rakusu daily because I think that is important too. Like everything in life, there is a cycle. Some times you do some things more than others. Practice feels right with this type of rhythm as well.

I don't know how to answer the question about if Buddhism needs to change, because I can't speak for Buddhism. But I think we all have a responsibility to change it for ourselves. We have to adapt it to our lives, or we are just parroting, imitating which, sure, we need to do that until we start learning to ride the bike without the training wheels. But at some point we have to dig in and ask ourselves why we are doing this.

I do think that by virtue of each of us applying Zen to our own lives it naturally will change because we are beings of our time; we can't change that. So I don't think any one should say (or a group of Buddhists), "Hey, Buddhism change." I think either humanity finds things useful or not, and when they do (which I think Buddhism is very much useful) it will adapt just by being practiced and adopted and adapted, very naturally, sort of how language naturally adapts to a culture when it is used, or how tools are honed or new tools discovered as they are used to solve new problems.

I also think it's dangerous to describe what Zen is; actually I think it's pretentious and limiting in a way, sort of like describing emptiness. I think the more I practice the more depth I find in the practice and realize that things that maybe didn't resonate start to resonate with me now, or teachings that seemed way out there really make sense with a different perspective. Of course, just like the imitation analogy, we need pointers and basics, but after we start practicing regularly we need to start questioning this shit for ourselves. Maybe that too is a more modern approach. Lay practitioners in the marketplace, taking it to the streets in our lives.

And I mean question everything, all of our assumptions. And similarly how that modernity most certainly skews our view on Buddhism, Buddhism has timeless truths that also influence us. This isn't a one way street; if it was all one way or the other, there would be no value/need for Buddhism. I think Zen takes us to the basics of what we hold important. I think that like the intro says, we need desperately to find that connection with each other so that we don't see each other as adversaries but learn how to live with each other and truly take care of each other.

I don't have any answers. I have more questions than anything, but I do know; I mean we absolutely do know, deep down, we know when we are bullshitting ourselves.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Hi Risho,

The Hitler weatherman dealie was to illustrate how we should approach matters of truthfulness (though the specific approach would very by subject matter.) To evaluate the truth of Hitler's statement about the weather we go check the weather we don't consult our feelings about either Hitler or rain. The state of the weather is independent of my feelings either way. I was trying to put that idea into a context that should be relatable to everyday experience.


Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

[Kyotai]

- Is the modern world changing Buddhism? Is that good? Not good in some ways?

I think the modern world is changing Buddhism in several ways. Technology is helping practitioners find one another and practice from home. Apps are also helping local sitters find each other. I also think we live in a time where more and more folks are taking what they like from Buddhism, and throwing out what they don't. Meditation being used in schools and the work place to assist with anxiety, or perhaps improve efficiency.

- Is Buddhism changing the modern world? Is that good? Not good in some ways?

Its changed my world, but is it changing the world? I really don't think so.

- Does Buddhism need to change even more in the face of modern society, scientific discoveries and the like?

I think it will continue to evolve and utilize technological advances, but still maintain its core principles.

- Should Buddhism not change in some ways, no matter what science discovers or modern values change?

In some ways it has very much adapted to modern values. What is seen as right livelihood now might not have been in the time of Dogen. The Dalai Lama said, “If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.” I believe that statement is right on par with how Buddhism should move into the future.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST