New Buddhist Path - INTRODUCTION: In Quest of a Modern Buddhism

[Jundo]

Dear All,

Let's begin our group readings and discussions of Zen Teacher David Loy's recent work, A New Buddhist Path: Enlightenment, Evolution, and Ethics in the Modern World. Lots of food for thought (and non-thought) in this short book.

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=rt5wBAAAQBAJ&dq=david+loy&q=table+of+contents#v=snippet&q=table%20of%20contents&f=false

I will try to post a new reading assignment every weekend or so (unless the discussion of some chapter is particularly good, in which case we will linger a bit).

This week, we will focus on the INTRODUCTION: In Quest of a Modern Buddhism, which is pages 1 through 8 in the paperback version.

I will toss out a few questions just to get things going, but you can ignore them or address them or talk about anything else that strikes your fancy in these pages. My questions are just suggestions. These questions are asked as we just get started, before reading what David has to say on these issues, so we may return to these issues several times in the course of the book.

- Is the modern world changing Buddhism? Is that good? Not good in some ways?

- Is Buddhism changing the modern world? Is that good? Not good in some ways?

- Does Buddhism need to change even more in the face of modern society, scientific discoveries and the like?

- Should Buddhism not change in some ways, no matter what science discovers or modern values change?

I am hoping that David Loy will come to lead Zazen and speak to us sometime later this year.

Feel free to talk among yourselves here too, and comment on each others' comments, if you want. Visualize that we are all sitting in a circle with coffee and donuts (mmmm, Donuts!) at the local book store (those are becoming more and more imaginary too!). Everyone says their piece if they wish, but you can also ask each other questions or talk of impressions and insights from other members' words if you want.

However, okay not to as well, and just lay back and listen too. You can just stay for the coffee and donuts too, all free.

Gassho, J

SatToday

(IN MODERATION!)

[Myosha]

Hello,

Buddhism is a healing art, come what may.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jundo]

Hello,

Buddhism is a healing art, come what may.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

It can also be wrong, less effective than it might be, unsuited to the times. What do you mean?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Myosha]

It can also be wrong, less effective than it might be, unsuited to the times. What do you mean?

Gassho, J

SatToday

Hello,

Buddhism is a healing art. Express Picasso, Nishida Kitaro, a child's laugh, Andy Warhol. All art, all heal, all Buddhism. Or not.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Myosha]

It can also be wrong, less effective than it might be, unsuited to the times. What do you mean?

Gassho, J

SatToday

Hello,

Funny, humans can realize timelessness and then say, "Yeah, but what about . . . ."

Or not.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jundo]

Well, Myosha, you seem to know what you mean. That's enough.

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Wonderful, thank you Jundo. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[AlanLa]

As for all the change questions at the top, of course all that change is happening, at least when it comes to Zen, which I understand as change. Zen is a process, not an outcome; it is flexible within a structure that is not dogmatic, thus open to influence in all directions. If it didn't change or change things, then what would be the point? Studying the koans, and the lineage before that, was all about applying ancient wisdom to present circumstances, thus changing us in some way, and then taking that change out into the world, thus also changing it in some way. We don't sit zazen to change ourselves, though that will likely happen in time. We don't take zazen off the cushion to change the world around us, though that is inevitable if you understand that the whole world enlightens you and you enlighten it when you sit zazen. We take the Buddhist Path out into the world, and the Buddhist Path is our world. It's all good.

I've been reading Homeless Kodo, and everything in it seems to come back to finding your True Self, that Self that is beyond ego and is beyond everything yet also one with it all. Drop the dogma, drop the fear, drop the materialism, drop the this/that etc. until all the dualities are also dropped, and that's what echoed in my head as Loy was asking about enlightenment being transcendent or immanent, which jumped out at me as just another duality. Yes and no to both and neither, I thought to myself. Thankfully, he goes on in the next paragraph to say we need to move beyond that duality into this new Buddhist Path he wants to explore. Deep stuff, and I like this kind of deep stuff. I have not read ahead at all, so I am looking forward to freshly exploring this as we move along.

[Hoko]

Gassho,

1) Yes, I think Buddhism has historically taken on the flavor of whatever culture it encounters. Problems change, but "not wanting to have any problems" doesn't seem to change. From birth to death (and from east to west) it's just like this.
2) Yes. Buddhism is changing the modern world. "Buddhism" is also changing the modern world. Both the moon and the finger pointing at it are changing the modern world. It's good because it's a path to the end of suffering but it's sometimes not good because people often confuse the painted rice cake for the rice cake. But "you have to say something" as Katagiri Roshi once said.
3) Yes. Buddhism is about reality as we understand it and also as we DON'T understand it. If how we understand it changes then so must Buddhism.
4) Yes. Because no matter how much we understand reality there will be an equal measure of not knowing. Reality exists as-it-is with nothing to add, nothing to take away so there will be a balanced state even while there is individual delusion.

One final anecdote:
When I first read this introduction I was struck by the words of Arthur Toynbee (of whom I knew nothing) so I posted them on Facebook. Someone wrote back "Toynbee was a fascist". 😧
This sparked a long argument about whether or not the source of wisdom is more important than the wisdom itself. I said that "everything is my teacher" and my interlocutor felt that since Toynbee was (allegedly) a Nazi sympathizer that his opinion was invalid.
We went round and round. Finally I turned to my wife and asked her "If Jesus said 'be kind to others' and Hitler said 'be kind to others' would the source matter or would the sentiment be more important?" She surprised me by saying that the source DID matter whereas I felt that prajña is prajña regardless.
Once I calmed down I realized that we were both right and I was a fool to argue.
So bringing this anecdote back to our discussion:
Enlightenment may be the moon but sometimes who's pointing to it can make a big difference.
Sometimes when I say something wise, my friends and family smile and nod and agree with me. Sometimes when I say the same thing in a way that's "Buddhist" they tell me to "spare them the Zen shit".
So, does Buddhism have to change to fit the modern world?
SOMETIMES.
Does Buddhism have to not change to fit the modern world?
SOMETIMES.

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday

[Onkai]

Thank you Jundo and everyone for this discussion.

I'm glad to be practicing at a time when lay practice is emphasized and also when gender isn't a barrier. I'm also glad to have this community online. So my take on how Buddhism is changing to fit the modern world is positive. The use of Buddhist based practices in psychology, such as the mindfulness based practices are good for psychology, but lose some of their original meaning, such as being a part of an ethical framework. Still, these practices may make Buddhism more approachable for people who are interested in going deeper into practice.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[Ryumon]

An aside, before I comment. The introduction in my book is pages 1-7; you say it's pages 1-9. The book has 164 pages, through the end of the index. Does that correspond to your edition, Jundo? I'm just wondering if there are two editions, and the page numbers you mention may be out of sync.

Without answering your questions directly, I think the difference we're facing now, as compared to when Buddhism spread to other countries, is the fact that so many Buddhisms have come to the west. It's not just, say, Indian Buddhism going to Tibet or China, it's all the different Buddhisms coming to the west, and vying for preeminence. Tibetan Buddhism has an edge, because of the Dalai Lama, but Zen has been here a bit longer, and is better established in the world of art and music. So we can no longer talk about a single Buddhism, but we have to consider the varied traditions and practices of many variants.

It's no secret that I'm a believer in the need for a more secular Buddhism, and, to address your fourth question, I think the biggest change we'll see is a new type of Buddhism that drops many of the trappings of tradition. I don't think this has anything to do with what science discovers - while neuroscientists have closely examined meditation, I'm not convinced that really has anything to do with Buddhism as such.

I think the main change has already happened, of course: that's the way lay people have access to the practice, something that was rare in the many countries where Buddhism flourished. And that alone is changing Buddhism from a top-down religion to a more secular practice. (Though I shudder when I read Loy saying "If the Buddhist path is psychological therapy..." I think that's something that is perverting Buddhism from its true meaning.)

Gassho,

Kirk

#Sat

[Zenmei]

Though I shudder when I read Loy saying "If the Buddhist path is psychological therapy..."

I felt the same twinge. I have heard Shakyamuni described as a "radical psychologist" though, and it's not wrong. Incomplete, maybe.

Gassho, Zenmei
#sat

[Jiken]

- Is the modern world changing Buddhism? This prompts me to ask if the nature of buddhism is fixed and unchangeable? It seems as all my thoughts/answers reference the introduction are questions. Does it have a core? Are we able to render "it" down to one unchanging thing. What is the test to determine what enhances and what corrupts. Is there and answer? I don't know but any question seems valid. Whatever "buddhism" is is possible for it to ever stop evolving?

Gassho,

Jiken

[Jundo]

An aside, before I comment. The introduction in my book is pages 1-7; you say it's pages 1-9. The book has 164 pages, through the end of the index. Does that correspond to your edition, Jundo? I'm just wondering if there are two editions, and the page numbers you mention may be out of sync.

9 is the start of the next chapter. You have the right edition. I will write it differently for you next time.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Koushu]

I would say no to all four of them. My reasoning is that the philosophy and practice are good for our stability so these are not the problem, not only that the belief or philosophy or practice changes nothing in the world.

The question should be "As a Buddhist how do I change the world? Do we allow society control is with its greed, anger, ignorance, pride, etc? We are the manifestation of the the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Not representatives but actual manifestation.

Each to his or her own practice, but besides our main practice of Shikantaza it is good to check ourselves to make sure the changes, good changes are happening, they will take time. To Buddhism including Zen is a very personal practice but at the same time all consuming. Before we can help others or society or the world we first have to help ourselves.

Yesterday morning at work (for those who don't know I work as a water well driller), my boss and I were suppose to pull out the truck and get the equipment to the drill site when we got hit by freezing rain and they closed the roads for a good two hours. My boss became angry, that anger grew over the morning. "Riding upon a horse of good breed is that of the hell realm" is not only a description of the power of anger that my boss had but that all of us experience when we let anger or any of the other poisons run free. For hell is created by our own mind.

In the flat bed truck we use to carry equipment and water to the drill site, in the cab their is a small sticky calender with pictures of half naked women. As I noticed this item I thought instantly of hungry ghost, they are not dead they are us now when we desire for something, maybe that beautiful woman, or expensive bottle of wine or the sound of the lute played upon the wind. "Listening upon the good string is that of the hungry ghost. "
Now how do I prevent my boss's anger from over flowing to me, how do I stop the desire for those lovely women? "To this I sit as the pine. Upon the stone enveloped in the mind of emptiness " that is our principle practice in Shikantaza, let's also check ourselves, this is how we change the world to be a better place.

As each person has their own capacity of understanding the Buddhist will need to change for certain persons to understand and find their way. I like to call it evolution and adaptation. But there will remain some who find their satori and effect the world or society by wondering the mountains chasing away evil dragons, like myself.

So the final answer no, but yes and everything in between, depends upon the practitioner and the society the have to deal with.

Gassho
拡手
Koushu

Sattoday

P.S. my boss apologizedfor being angry yesterday and I smiled and he smiled and we both laughed until we cried. I told him to have a great weekend and he bowed with a genuine smile on his face and a glow about him. His horse of good breed had run itself to death.



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