Stories of the Lotus Sutra - The Jewel in the Topknot

[Bion]

image-28.jpgHello, friends. Happy Monday and a great start to this new month!

It’s time to turn the page in our book and move on to the next chapter. I have a feeling there will be plenty to discuss about this one, and it excites me.

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Reading Assignment: Chapter 18, The Jewel in the Topknot.

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I believe this chapter might be the most practical among those we’ve studied so far, offering valuable lessons for everyday life. That’s always a wonderful thing. Please read the chapter, and when you’re ready to share your reflections, return to this thread to do so. Also, pay attention to others’ comments and engage with them as well.

Next Saturday, we’ll gather for our usual Zoom meeting, and I’m very excited about it. Everyone is invited and welcome, whether you’re part of the Book Club or not. It’s fun and insightful. Mark your calendar for Saturday, June 6th.

Happy reading, and I can’t wait to see where this discussion leads.

With metta and in gassho.


sat lah

[Chikyou]

This chapter may be the most practical, and maybe, for me, the most problematic of all of them. The lists of people that followers are admonished to stay away from is, well, quite a list, and includes people that we would likely not see as poor associations today. (I think we can all agree to stay away from murderers, but women? People who participate in “dangerous sports”? (I looked that one up- the sutra itself mentions boxers and wrestlers.) Shravakas?) This list is clearly also a “product of its time”, but also, it seems to be saying “stay away from everyone and everything that isn’t the Lotus Sutra”.

On the other hand, maybe it’s not so practical- imagine if we, today, cut ourselves off from the world and all things that aren’t the Lotus Sutra or followers of the Lotus Sutra?

I feel a strict interpretation of this one is not for us, who live in the world and have bills to pay.

I’m really curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Bion]

This chapter may be the most practical, and maybe, for me, the most problematic of all of them. The lists of people that followers are admonished to stay away from is, well, quite a list, and includes people that we would likely not see as poor associations today. (I think we can all agree to stay away from murderers, but women? People who participate in “dangerous sports”? (I looked that one up- the sutra itself mentions boxers and wrestlers.) Shravakas?) This list is clearly also a “product of its time”, but also, it seems to be saying “stay away from everyone and everything that isn’t the Lotus Sutra”.

On the other hand, maybe it’s not so practical- imagine if we, today, cut ourselves off from the world and all things that aren’t the Lotus Sutra or followers of the Lotus Sutra?

I feel a strict interpretation of this one is not for us, who live in the world and have bills to pay.

I’m really curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

HA! Do not be deceived... Stay with it just a bit longer, and allow the rejection to the message to melt away. I'm curious what happens when you return to it!

Gassho
sat lah

[carolynz]

Hi Chikyō,
It also struck me that this is so practical. So simple. And problematic. Yes, yes, see the good in everybody! It occurs to me that have actually been trying to see the good in everyone lately, I continue to see their faults and get angry, even (or especially) those close to me. Hmmm.

On the subject of staying away from people, maybe the Lotus Sutra is talking about monastery living. He warns about not only women, but children too, among others. We have ample instances today of priests and ministers who have lost their way and have to be fired or sent to jail.

I am in the process of reading the actual Sutra, which is very different from Gene Reeves' translation, and very poetic. The poetry is unbelievable!

Gassho,
Carolyn sat lah

[Tenryu]

I immediately thought of the Vinaya here: If I remember correctly there are older lists of “unskillful associations” similar to this in there?
Bion will probably know this for sure!

Taking such a list just at face value, it doesn’t feel like something that can be translated directly into our current everyday life without distortion.
On top of that, the Lotus Sutra itself also says bodhisattvas should teach all beings.

Maybe there is something here about not just categorizing certain types of people as “to be avoided,” and more about noticing conditions where practice becomes unstable or easily entangled? Things like dependence, status, proximity to power, or just getting pulled into social dynamics that blur clarity?

But then again, the text itself still uses very concrete lists, which makes it hard to reduce it to pure metaphor.

I am left with a sense of that tension staying unresolved in a way that feels intentional rather than accidental. It keeps shifting slightly while I read it.

Gasshō,
Tenryū
sat&lah

[carolynz]

I can identify with the "shifting", which happens each time I read this. It is like looking at a jewel, with so many different sides.

Correction: Re: my last comment, I borrowed my daughters Lotus Sutra book (translation, also by Gene Reeves,). I recommend it, for looking for longer commentary and translation with some poetry. I let the poetry "flow over" me, without engaging my "thinking" mind too much. It is like trying to catch the light with your hands.

Gassho,
Carolyn
sat lah

[Ryūdō-Liúdào]

To be honest, I found the "who to avoid" part of the chapter relatively unimportant hahaha.

The more interesting part for me was how the Bodhisattva is encouraged to conduct themselves in a difficult age: with patience, restraint, careful speech, and compassion.

Perhaps the point isn't so much about avoiding certain kinds of people as it is about avoiding certain habits of mind. It's easy to identify arrogance, hostility, or attachment in others. It's a little harder when they show up in our own chair.

The Bodhisattva in an evil age doesn't spend all day making lists of enemies; they keep practicing.
...And when we do encounter an arrogant, argumentative, stubborn fool, we'd best first check whether there's a mirror nearby!

As for the parable itself, the king guards the jewel for years before finally giving it out.

The soldiers wonder, "Why not give it to us sooner?"
The king wonders, "Why did it take you so long to notice you were already worthy of it?"

And somewhere in the background, the dragon girl is still laughing at everybody arguing about who gets which jewel!

Gasshō,
流道-Ryūdō-Liúdào
Satlah

[Chikyou]

To be honest, I found the "who to avoid" part of the chapter relatively unimportant hahaha.

The more interesting part for me was how the Bodhisattva is encouraged to conduct themselves in a difficult age: with patience, restraint, careful speech, and compassion.

Perhaps the point isn't so much about avoiding certain kinds of people as it is about avoiding certain habits of mind. It's easy to identify arrogance, hostility, or attachment in others. It's a little harder when they show up in our own chair.

The Bodhisattva in an evil age doesn't spend all day making lists of enemies; they keep practicing.
...And when we do encounter an arrogant, argumentative, stubborn fool, we'd best first check whether there's a mirror nearby!

As for the parable itself, the king guards the jewel for years before finally giving it out.

The soldiers wonder, "Why not give it to us sooner?"
The king wonders, "Why did it take you so long to notice you were already worthy of it?"

And somewhere in the background, the dragon girl is still laughing at everybody arguing about who gets which jewel!

Gasshō,
流道-Ryūdō-Liúdào
Satlah

I love this interpretation!

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[carolynz]

Hi all,
I have a question. I understand the idea that we all have a light and a dark side, as shown in the Chinese symbol. That we would not see the light if it wasn't for the dark, for one thing, . My question is, what happens to the dark side when we practice Buddhism. Does it disappear once Buddhahood is attained? Is it a fight to the finish, or does it gradually fade away? Is it necessary as part of our makeup (we all have it), or something we all have to change/obliterate?

Is this why none in the four vows can be attained?

Thanks! I apologize if this is off topic.

Gassho,
Carolyn sat/lah

[Bion]

Hi all,
I have a question. I understand the idea that we all have a light and a dark side, as shown in the Chinese symbol. That we would not see the light if it wasn't for the dark, for one thing, . My question is, what happens to the dark side when we practice Buddhism. Does it disappear once Buddhahood is attained? Is it a fight to the finish, or does it gradually fade away? Is it necessary as part of our makeup (we all have it), or something we all have to change/obliterate?

Is this why none in the four vows can be attained?

Thanks! I apologize if this is off topic.

Gassho,
Carolyn sat/lah

Great question! I would say that our accumulated delusion manifests as unskillful, harmful actions, words, and thoughts. I’m not sure if I would say there is such a thing as a constant dark side and a constant luminous one, but rather, in any given moment, we manifest either delusion or bodhi. My belief and experience are that through practice, we eliminate delusion, and when delusion is absent, our actions and thoughts are not harmful. Instead of pursuing some distant moment of absolute perfection, our approach is to engage with reality moment by moment with wisdom. We express awakening one moment at a time. Personally, I don’t believe a “dark side” is necessary, but it’s simply something that arises when certain conditions are present. Ignorance is fertile ground for craving and attachment, and out of these come harmful actions. However, if the conditions change, something else arises.

It’s not that the four vows can’t be achieved; rather, they are not meant to be fully attained but rather perfected through continuous engagement. We don’t seek to reach a point where there are no more vows to uphold. Instead, our goal is to live guided by the aspirations outlined in the vows. Every action motivated by these vows represents the perfect fulfillment of them.

I hope that's helpful

Gassho
sat lah

[carolynz]

Bion,

Thank you so much! Your answer helps a lot for me to understand the basis of delusion, the nature of awakening; I think I am starting to understand about "skillful actions" a little more. This is truly a beautiful path to follow. Not an "endless" path such as climbing a mountain full of stones, but day to day, living the vows, which is liberation.

Your last sentence, that actions motivated by the vows represents perfect fulfillment of them, knocks me for a loop. It means that anyone can do this.

Gassho
Carolyn
sat lah

[Menmoku]

The Lotus Sutra talks a lot about the Lotus Sutra. But what is the Lotus Sutra?
Where is the Lotus Sutra?
The way it is appearing to me right now is that the time for words is over.
It is time for me to find 'the Lotus' wordlessly, here, now in the inseparable joys and pains of life.

Wind cold
Sun warm
Joy pain
not two.

[Chiko]

The Buddha gave the world many wonderful gifts, but saved the supreme teaching when when we were ready.

An important metaphor, I think, for each of our progressions on the path. A person living on the street likely needs food more than teachings on emptiness, so a Bodhisattva would be skillful in alleviating the most immediate suffering in order to pave the road to awakening. Everyone is at a different stage in the progression toward eventual Buddhahood, says the Lotus Sutra, and developing wisdom allows us to work with those differences with compassion.

Reeves points out that we all have a jewel to give, and implies that each one is relative to our karma and skills and conditioning. I may not be best suited to address every kind of suffering, but it would be good of me to understand what I can give, and not to squander that.

Gassho,
Chiko
st/lah

[Shinkon]

Great question! I would say that our accumulated delusion manifests as unskillful, harmful actions, words, and thoughts. I’m not sure if I would say there is such a thing as a constant dark side and a constant luminous one, but rather, in any given moment, we manifest either delusion or bodhi. My belief and experience are that through practice, we eliminate delusion, and when delusion is absent, our actions and thoughts are not harmful. Instead of pursuing some distant moment of absolute perfection, our approach is to engage with reality moment by moment with wisdom. We express awakening one moment at a time. Personally, I don’t believe a “dark side” is necessary, but it’s simply something that arises when certain conditions are present. Ignorance is fertile ground for craving and attachment, and out of these come harmful actions. However, if the conditions change, something else arises.

It’s not that the four vows can’t be achieved; rather, they are not meant to be fully attained but rather perfected through continuous engagement. We don’t seek to reach a point where there are no more vows to uphold. Instead, our goal is to live guided by the aspirations outlined in the vows. Every action motivated by these vows represents the perfect fulfillment of them.

I hope that's helpful

Gassho
sat lah

Over the years, this part of the Lotus Sutra waxed and waned in its importance for me. In my experience, delusion, clarity, and paradox are possibly present simultaneously. We choose how to water certain karmic seeds over others. Sometimes, when our world is in chaos, we only learn what grows in our present after the fact. This is where consistent practice and wholesome engagement lessen the chances of harm/increased suffering arising in our present.
Nowadays, I look at the four vows as examples. For the fruits of these vows to bud and eventually blossom, it takes consistent effort and practice. If we see the four vows as achievable targets, we treat them as some kind of award at the end of a race. "Look! I've won the prize of passing through the Dharma Gate." Also, if we see them as never-achievable goals, we may give up altogether. Here lies Paradox. What helped me was looking at the Buddha, Dogen, et al., as exemplars. The concept of the exemplar gives me a way to approach the four vows and other aspects of our tradition.

Gassho,
Shinkon

[Hokuu]

This chapter irritates me.

It tells one to avoid shravakas and, at the same time, accepts that there are different valid vehicles.
It tells one to avoid "wrestlers and boxers" and later - "the five types of unmanly men". Come on, be consistent I won't even quote who these "five types" are; feel free to google "paṇḍaka".
This list can be much longer.

I explained many of the inconsistencies to myself by the fact that this text might be a collection of texts, traditions, and teachings, but it's hard not to notice these very clear inconsistencies. One need not be a modern person to notice them. Old sages were smart enough - why compile a text like this?

And the most annoying thing is this "hidden and later revealed" idea. I get it, some teachings go through transformation and change across different ages and cultures, but it was not hidden at the beginning to be revealed later.


satlah