Stories of the Lotus Sutra - Chapter 17: Two Nuns

[Bion]

nuns and Buddha.jpg Hello, everyone, and happy Monday. I hope you all had a good weekend. Thank you to those who joined us for practice—Friday’s zazenkai, Saturday’s Book Club meeting, and Sunday’s zazenkai.

We now move on to a new chapter of our book. After the serpent princess, we encounter more devoted female practitioners.

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Reading Assignment: Chapter 17 – Two Nuns

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As always, please spend some time reading and reflecting on the chapter. When you’re ready, come back to this thread to share your reflections. I’m looking forward to seeing what arises for you from this chapter.

If you missed last Saturday’s meeting, you can catch up with the recording on our Study Page.

Enjoy the reading, and I’ll see you back here for the discussion.


With metta and in gassho,
sat lah

[Chikyou]

I see this chapter as even more defiance of expectations - perhaps even moreso than other chapters, I feel that the historical context of this chapter is important. Back in the day when this was written, women were not accepted as being able to attain enlightenment, and here is the Buddha, assuring two nuns that they are to become great Bodhisattvas.

To me, this reads as a stunning social commentary - it’s not subtle, there’s not much to debate. The Buddha is accepting women as disciples. End of story, period, no debate or discussion. He’s not leaving any room for the naysayers to get a word in edgewise here. I image that, in the time when the Lotus Sutra was written, this was nothing short of scandalous, even if it doesn’t seem so scandalous today.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Bion]

I see this chapter as even more defiance of expectations - perhaps even moreso than other chapters, I feel that the historical context of this chapter is important. Back in the day when this was written, women were not accepted as being able to attain enlightenment, and here is the Buddha, assuring two nuns that they are to become great Bodhisattvas.

Actually, both in the Agamas, and Pali canons, so basically, in early buddhist texts, women could very well attain enlightenment, all the way up to arhatship, which was the final goal. As a matter of fact, the canons contain series of peoms written by and about nuns of the early sangha, where they tell stories of their struggles and enlightenment, like this one:


Kassapa is the son and heir of the Buddha,
whose mind is immersed in samādhi.
He who knows his past lives,
sees heaven and places of loss,

and has attained the end of rebirth:
is a sage of perfect insight.
It’s because of these three knowledges
that the brahmin is a master of the three knowledges.

In exactly the same way, Bhaddā daughter of Kapila
is master of the three knowledges,
conqueror of death.

She bears her final body,
having vanquished Māra with his legions.

Seeing the danger of the world,
both of us went forth.
Now we are tamed, our defilements have ended;
we’ve become cooled and quenched.

What became a problem with the development of the Mahayana, and the creation of the goal of Buddhahood, was the existing belief that a being in female form couldn't become a Sammāsambuddha (a discoverer of the dharma).

gassho
sat lah

[Taiji]

Hey, all!

It seems like I'm missing an awful lot of historical and cultural context for what's going on specifically with the existing beliefs at the time about whether beings in female form could accomplish certain things, so I'd be very grateful for further resources and/or elaboration on those topics for sure.

Stepping aside very briefly from the historical side (because I can't meaningfully comment on it, not because it somehow lacks value), I will say that between this chapter and the last one, the following thought about attaining Buddhahood popped into my head:

Given that the Buddha is guaranteeing pretty much everyone that yes, they will eventually become buddhas, I wonder whether there's some symbolic meaning in play here aside from or in addition to whatever literal meaning may have been intended. Since, in a way, we all make our journey through this life alone, and no one can do the work of perceiving reality and understanding the dharma for us, on some level, aren't we all going through essentially the same process as Shakyamuni? And doesn't than mean that, in the distinct world of our own existence, we're each the one discovering and embodying the dharma? We each have to confront the Four Noble Truths. Many of us have tried countless other solutions, just as the Buddha explored other paths and traditions, and we each have to be the one to finally admit those things aren't working and sit down and sort the Great Matter out for ourselves. In that regard, how could we all not awaken to the reality of being buddhas eventually?

Part of me really wonders if that is what the Buddha is driving at when he promises folks they will attain buddhahood. I don't doubt that there's a historical element I'm missing because I'm ignorant of it, but perhaps that metaphorical angle has some value?

Lots more I'm curious about as well, but I'll leave it there for now!

Gassho,
Taiji
Sat/LAH Today

[Bion]

Hey, all!

It seems like I'm missing an awful lot of historical and cultural context for what's going on specifically with the existing beliefs at the time about whether beings in female form could accomplish certain things, so I'd be very grateful for further resources and/or elaboration on those topics for sure.

Stepping aside very briefly from the historical side (because I can't meaningfully comment on it, not because it somehow lacks value), I will say that between this chapter and the last one, the following thought about attaining Buddhahood popped into my head:

Given that the Buddha is guaranteeing pretty much everyone that yes, they will eventually become buddhas, I wonder whether there's some symbolic meaning in play here aside from or in addition to whatever literal meaning may have been intended. Since, in a way, we all make our journey through this life alone, and no one can do the work of perceiving reality and understanding the dharma for us, on some level, aren't we all going through essentially the same process as Shakyamuni? And doesn't than mean that, in the distinct world of our own existence, we're each the one discovering and embodying the dharma? We each have to confront the Four Noble Truths. Many of us have tried countless other solutions, just as the Buddha explored other paths and traditions, and we each have to be the one to finally admit those things aren't working and sit down and sort the Great Matter out for ourselves. In that regard, how could we all not awaken to the reality of being buddhas eventually?

Part of me really wonders if that is what the Buddha is driving at when he promises folks they will attain buddhahood. I don't doubt that there's a historical element I'm missing because I'm ignorant of it, but perhaps that metaphorical angle has some value?

Lots more I'm curious about as well, but I'll leave it there for now!

Gassho,
Taiji
Sat/LAH Today

Hi, Tai! Here are a couple of great resources on the topic of women in Buddhism:

This, from Jan Nattier, focusing specifically on the Lotus Sutra, which you can download for free and legally on Academia: https://www.academia.edu/8164216/Gender_and_Hierarchy_in_the_Lotus_Sūtra

This one, "Attitudes toward Women and the Feminine in Early Buddhism", by Alan Sponberg: https://zmm.org/wp-content/uploads/2...-Buddhism-.pdf

There is also this paper, titled " Through the Yellow Gate: Ordination of Gender-Nonconforming People in the Buddhist Vinaya," from Venerable Vimala Bhikkhuni. https://www.academia.edu/45662764/Th...uddhist_Vinaya

In the book "Great Disciples of the Buddha - Their Lives, Their Works, Their Legacy" by Nyanaponika Thera and Helmuth Hecker, there's a section of almost 100 pages devoted to the stories of great women disciples.

As for your other comment, I think it's important to let imagination flow and draw as much as possible from these texts, historical context aside. Part of our exercise here is to see what the readings mean to us personally. What do we infuse the readings with? The authors of this text themselves were engaged in a similar creative exercise.

Gassho
sat lah

[Chikyou]

Wow! So it seems I am mistaken about a few things, or at least missing context. I’m excited to read through these posted resources when I get time!

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Bion]

Wow! So it seems I am mistaken about a few things, or at least missing context. I’m excited to read through these posted resources when I get time!

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

I think the discovery here is mostly on the positive side... or at least I hope so

gassho
sat lah

[carolynz]

Hi all,

Tai brings up a great idea - that all of us are on our way, one way or another (paraphrasing). The Buddha further said that the 600 nuns accompanying the two nuns, who did not ask for anything and who stayed in the background, will also be saved. Cause for rejoicing! I am planning to read some of the other referenced thoughts about women in Buddhism. Side note: It is interesting that Jesus showed respect towards women, and during Paul's time, women were apparently leaders of some of the groups that he founded.

Off topic: I am wondering why, in spite of Buddha's and other teachings which have had periodic large followings over the centuries, have become less popular, and the world seems to be in worse shape than ever. Technological advances are used for war, and people in U.S. have become divided and hateful towards one another. Articles of War limiting cruety on populations are forgotten. Soon an inexpensive drone in enough numbers will be able to destroy a whole population. It seems that early flowering of major religions of the world such as Buddhism, has been followed by less popularity and practice. I apologize if my take on this is historically inaccurate. If all of us have been advancing towards Buddhahood, where are those 600 nuns when we need them? What has happened with all the historical Buddha's in the lineage? I have been concerned about this for some time.

Gassho,
Carollyn sat lah

[Taiji]

Hi all,

Tai brings up a great idea - that all of us are on our way, one way or another (paraphrasing). The Buddha further said that the 600 nuns accompanying the two nuns, who did not ask for anything and who stayed in the background, will also be saved. Cause for rejoicing! I am planning to read some of the other referenced thoughts about women in Buddhism. Side note: It is interesting that Jesus showed respect towards women, and during Paul's time, women were apparently leaders of some of the groups that he founded.

Off topic: I am wondering why, in spite of Buddha's and other teachings which have had periodic large followings over the centuries, have become less popular, and the world seems to be in worse shape than ever. Technological advances are used for war, and people in U.S. have become divided and hateful towards one another. Articles of War limiting cruety on populations are forgotten. Soon an inexpensive drone in enough numbers will be able to destroy a whole population. It seems that early flowering of major religions of the world such as Buddhism, has been followed by less popularity and practice. I apologize if my take on this is historically inaccurate. If all of us have been advancing towards Buddhahood, where are those 600 nuns when we need them? What has happened with all the historical Buddha's in the lineage? I have been concerned about this for some time.

Gassho,
Carollyn sat lah

Heya, Carolyn!

I really enjoyed your post. You bring up a lot of very interesting points, and I'm also really looking forward to checking out the additional material that's been linked.

I wonder, too, sometimes, about the state of the world, but I also suspect it wasn't perfect during the Buddha's time. Maybe if it was, he'd never have seen the things that led him to go seeking the truth. It seems like we've always had war, violence, hatred, and the rest, and though we have new technologies that can be misused to do those things more efficiently now, I suspect there have always been people with the misguided will to use those tools for their own gain.

But there are also people in every age who work for the common good. I have no idea how accurate or inaccurate I am, but if I had to guess, the proportion of people throughout all time who have been renunciants and devoted laypeople really dedicated to the Bodhisattva ideal has probably been relatively small, so I bet those nuns and buddhas are out there today, maybe even among us right here or maybe spread throughout the world...but man, have they got their work cut out for them! So maybe it's just hard for us to notice when there's so much angry noise out there. But the good thing is that we're here, too, on the Bodhisattva path, and we can do what we can to contribute to that work.

Gassho,
Taiji
Sat/LAH Today

[Ryūdō-Liúdào]

I’ve gotta admit, at this point I’m starting to feel the sutra entering its “yes yes, EVERYBODY gets a prediction!” phase hahaha. That being said, it does continue driving home an important point: women are fully included in the path as well.

What really struck me once more was how intensely everyone seems to want confirmation that they too will become Buddhas someday. Part of me reads this and thinks, “You’re practicing with the Buddha himself… why are your knickers all in such a bunch about getting reassurance?”
Of course, that need or want is so deeply human. People want to know they belong. They want to know they’re truly seen and included. And historically, for women especially, that acknowledgment likely carried a great deal of weight.

The repetition is starting to feel very familiar, almost like the same lesson repeated from different angles, and perhaps that’s partly the point. Maybe it comes from the sutra’s roots in oral tradition, but I also think the repetition is meant to wear grooves into the listener’s mind. The sutra keeps widening the circle until, eventually, no one is left standing outside it, and it's important that we know this.

The students ask, “Will we become Buddhas too?”
The Buddha sighs, “How many chapters do I need to write before you relax?”

Gasshō,
流道-Ryūdō-Liúdào
Satlah

[carolynz]

Hi Taiji,

Thanks for your thoughtful answer, esp. re the state of the world during Buddha's time. And there are indeed people throughout history who have worked for the good of mankind, many without fanfare and who are unknown to us.

Also, a good nights sleep seems to help, after a holiday week-end with visiting relatives leaves me grumpy!

Gassho,
Carolyn sat lah

[Tenryu]

Hey, all!

It seems like I'm missing an awful lot of historical and cultural context for what's going on specifically with the existing beliefs at the time about whether beings in female form could accomplish certain things, so I'd be very grateful for further resources and/or elaboration on those topics for sure.

Stepping aside very briefly from the historical side (because I can't meaningfully comment on it, not because it somehow lacks value), I will say that between this chapter and the last one, the following thought about attaining Buddhahood popped into my head:

Given that the Buddha is guaranteeing pretty much everyone that yes, they will eventually become buddhas, I wonder whether there's some symbolic meaning in play here aside from or in addition to whatever literal meaning may have been intended. Since, in a way, we all make our journey through this life alone, and no one can do the work of perceiving reality and understanding the dharma for us, on some level, aren't we all going through essentially the same process as Shakyamuni? And doesn't than mean that, in the distinct world of our own existence, we're each the one discovering and embodying the dharma? We each have to confront the Four Noble Truths. Many of us have tried countless other solutions, just as the Buddha explored other paths and traditions, and we each have to be the one to finally admit those things aren't working and sit down and sort the Great Matter out for ourselves. In that regard, how could we all not awaken to the reality of being buddhas eventually?

Part of me really wonders if that is what the Buddha is driving at when he promises folks they will attain buddhahood. I don't doubt that there's a historical element I'm missing because I'm ignorant of it, but perhaps that metaphorical angle has some value?

Lots more I'm curious about as well, but I'll leave it there for now!

Gassho,
Taiji
Sat/LAH Today

Taiji, I really appreciated reading this. Especially the thought that, in a way, we all have to walk through the same Great Matter ourselves. It stayed with me because it cuts through the tendency to treat awakening as something abstract or belonging to someone else.

“No one can do the work of perceiving reality and understanding the dharma for us” really stood out to me there. Teachers, sutras, sangha, all of that matters deeply, but nobody can actually walk through the fog for us.

Your post also made me wonder if this repeated assurance of future buddhahood in the Lotus Sutra is partly trying to loosen the distance we constantly create between “ordinary beings” and “Buddha.” Not in the sense that we are already finished or special somehow, but maybe that this path is not separate from our own lives after all.

I think that is also part of what makes Shariputra’s reactions in these chapters so interesting. He often feels very human to me. Trying to fit things back into familiar categories when something breaks the frame a little.

Anyway, thank you again. Your post gave me a lot to sit with.

Gasshō,
Tenryū
sat&lah

[Bion]

Your post also made me wonder if this repeated assurance of future buddhahood in the Lotus Sutra is partly trying to loosen the distance we constantly create between “ordinary beings” and “Buddha.” Not in the sense that we are already finished or special somehow, but maybe that this path is not separate from our own lives after all.

Excellent insight!

gassho
sat lah

[Choujou]

Hello everyone!
Some great insights and thoughts so far! Here is what struck me in this chapter…

The last chapter with the Dragon princess established that anyone can become a Buddha, regardless of forms or genders. This chapter, to me, is not about that, but about encouragement and persistence. Many of us face daily trials and problems… expectations not met…and how easy is it for us to slip back into old patterns, old ways of thinking and doing, or even into new despair and discouragement, and stray from the Dharma and our practice? We get the urge to cling to even the suffering sometimes, as Yashodhara did before becoming a nun. (My heart broke for her by the way… I felt so sad for her… but I am happy that she embraced the Dharma and moved away from her despair, persisted through hardships when becoming a nun, on her way to becoming a great Dharma teacher and eventual Buddha.) When we get off the zafu and go into the world full of “evil spirits” and those that foster anger, hatred, or greed in their hearts, how many become discouraged? How many throw up the hands and say “I give up”? This chapter for me was all about “keeping the faith” so to speak. In ourselves, in the Lotus Sutra, in our practice, in the Buddha… and to continue walking the path the Buddha has set out for us, and to share that path with others when we can, no matter what comes.

As an example… this last year for me was one of the most difficult in my life. Truth be told, I still have days where the grief overwhelms me. Thoughts of not being “good enough” swirl in the mind. Even when writing these posts, I sometimes doubt my own validity, the value of them… but still, I write it. I persist… there are days where I have woken up and the mind begins to find excuses not to sit. I look back at the comfy mattress, and think… “maybe I should just go back to bed”, especially on those tough mornings where the emotions are heavy. (Or when I’m waking up at 3am to make the European Zazenkai ) But it is in that moment that I decide to ignore those urges and thoughts… to let them pass, and I go and bow, say the robe verse, and sit. I also have been hosting one of the morning sits for quite some time now, and I want to be there to ring the bell, and share the Practice with all those who sit with me there. It has become a joy to see everyone and to share the Dharma. (And here too with all of you! )Sometimes I even sit longer! Not as a punishment, but as a dedication to this Path, to the one Buddha Vehicle. To me, this chapter is all about continuing to ride in that vehicle, down the one way road… and to pick up all those that are walking in the dark, driving in the wrong direction, or stuck in the mud, lost in their way, and giving them a lift on the road of life. Even if they despise you for it. No distinctions, no judgements… only the way.

Gassho,
Choujou

sat/lah today

[MikeH]

Hi all,

I have nothing to add beyond what has been said already. I would only like to add that everything everyone has ever written on this forum has helped me in some way, sometimes small and sometime enormous, and I hope nobody ever questions their posts, even when somebody else corrects them in some way. You never know how your words will teach and support someone, and I'm only sorry I wouldn't have the time in a hundred billion trillion kalpas to list the things I have learned from you all in these months of reading this book together.

Gassho,
Mike
satlah