Stories of the Lotus Sutra - Chapter 12: Ananda and Rahula

**Myojo** · 04-21-2026, 03:03 PM

I think brother Reeves does do a considerable jam on chapter 9 but not a pointless one.
The section on helping orcteaching those closecto us was very poignant to me - I was just talking with brother Bion a few days ago about my inability to effectively help either my father or my brother with their alcoholism despite having been ablecto help others less related to me.
In my case it came down to believing that I judfed them more harshly than people wh are a little more removed andcthat madecthem reluctant to open up to me when they were at their worst.
Which iscstrangely related to the other theme of encouraging Arhats with predictions of enlightenment.
I canectocthe conclusioncrhat I judged my family harshly because I judge myself harshly.
I basically feel unworthy andcthen hold myself to an impossible standard of perfection.
All my best teachers have made me feel that I could 'do it' and that I was basically 'Ok'.
I find that is also how I teach anyone except my family.
Perhaps it is time to let myself off the hook.
Finally I love this quote from Shunryu Suzuki....
"You are all perfect just as you are....but let's be honest, we could all do with a little improvement."

**Chikyou** · 04-22-2026, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Myojo

I think brother Reeves does do a considerable jam on chapter 9 but not a pointless one.
The section on helping orcteaching those closecto us was very poignant to me - I was just talking with brother Bion a few days ago about my inability to effectively help either my father or my brother with their alcoholism despite having been ablecto help others less related to me.
In my case it came down to believing that I judfed them more harshly than people wh are a little more removed andcthat madecthem reluctant to open up to me when they were at their worst.
Which iscstrangely related to the other theme of encouraging Arhats with predictions of enlightenment.
I canectocthe conclusioncrhat I judged my family harshly because I judge myself harshly.
I basically feel unworthy andcthen hold myself to an impossible standard of perfection.
All my best teachers have made me feel that I could 'do it' and that I was basically 'Ok'.
I find that is also how I teach anyone except my family.
Perhaps it is time to let myself off the hook.
Finally I love this quote from Shunryu Suzuki....
"You are all perfect just as you are....but let's be honest, we could all do with a little improvement."

I feel that teaching (and being taught by) those close to you is definitely more difficult. In a “professional” or a more casual relationship, there isn’t as much pressure as there tends to be when the person is close to you. Even if you aren’t judging those close to you more harshly (which you might be) there’s an element of “I don’t want to disappoint my brother” from him and an element of “it’s really extra important I help him, he’s my brother” from you. There’s a real lack of objectivity that changes the dynamic.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

**Bion** · 04-22-2026, 12:38 PM

Thanks Myojo and Chikyou, for getting the discussion started.

Personal relationships are indeed challenging because of their emotional dynamics. As I was saying to Menmoku the other day, it’s often easier to empathize with a stranger whose present reality is all we know. With a family member, however, we’ve seen them at their best and worst, we’re familiar with their virtues and flaws, and we know the choices they’ve made. In that sense, it becomes much harder to be less judgmental, I feel.

There’s also the saying, from the Bible, that no prophet is accepted in his hometown. I find that oddly true. No matter how significant the changes in my personality have been, they seem to go largely unacknowledged by some family members. At the same time, I seem to be more sensitive to the triggers that have built up over a lifetime and now permeate our family relationships. As a result, it becomes difficult for them to learn anything from me, for me to teach them, and sometimes even for me to learn from them.

Even the Buddha at times told his śramaṇas not to return to their hometowns, because the people there would “call them by their old names.” I interpret this to mean that they would only know and judge you as the old you, and therefore treat you as they always did.

gassho
sat lah

**MikeH** · 04-22-2026, 06:14 PM

My relationships have definitely improved since I started this practice a couple of years ago. I haven't tried teaching anything related to this practice to anyone close to me (or to anyone else), but I think the example of my calmer mood and kinder disposition has been a kind of lesson for a few people around me. A family member that I used to have difficulty with visited for a prolonged stay these past few weeks. Before she left she asked me to teach her to meditate. She learned I had been sitting every morning, and said she hoped it might work for her too. I'm sure everyone at Treeleaf is having this sort of quiet impact, whether or not you have had the good fortune like I just did to learn that you are having an impact.

I have a naive question about this chapter from the Sutra/Reeves. I'm just wondering what the Buddha's promise to Rahula literally meant. Does the Buddha mean that Rahula will be reborn billions and billions of times, and every time he will be reborn as the eldest son of the future Buddha of the world? Will he always be reborn the Buddha's son on Earth? Or might he be reborn in other worlds? Will his rebirths be consecutive, or can his rebirths be simultaneous (I'm not clear on Buddhist personal identity). I'm just thinking that if Shakyamuni Buddha has been Buddha of our world for around 2500 years, and if Rahula has been promised to be reborn as many times as there are specks of dust in the ten directions and always to some future Buddha not yet alive, then Rahula is going to be waiting a VERY LONG time before he becomes a Buddha, unless he can do some simultaneous multi-dimensional rebirthing. On top of that, I'm guessing Rahula is going to have to re-live in every single lifetime what was probably a very painful experience of losing his father at a young age when his father decides to go off to become a Buddha. Rahula will no doubt be delighted to learn he will be a Buddha, but my goodness, Rahula will have a cosmically long path ahead of him to get there. I wish him many magical castles along the way to give him occasional rest.

I want to be clear that I mean none of this in jest--I can't get to the spirit of the Sutra until I understand the literal story being told, which I currently don't.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Mike

**Bion** · 04-22-2026, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by MikeH

I have a naive question about this chapter from the Sutra/Reeves. I'm just wondering what the Buddha's promise to Rahula literally meant. Does the Buddha mean that Rahula will be reborn billions and billions of times, and every time he will be reborn as the eldest son of the future Buddha of the world? Will he always be reborn the Buddha's son on Earth? Or might he be reborn in other worlds? Will his rebirths be consecutive, or can his rebirths be simultaneous (I'm not clear on Buddhist personal identity). I'm just thinking that if Shakyamuni Buddha has been Buddha of our world for around 2500 years, and if Rahula has been promised to be reborn as many times as there are specks of dust in the ten directions and always to some future Buddha not yet alive, then Rahula is going to be waiting a VERY LONG time before he becomes a Buddha, unless he can do some simultaneous multi-dimensional rebirthing. On top of that, I'm guessing Rahula is going to have to re-live in every single lifetime what was probably a very painful experience of losing his father at a young age when his father decides to go off to become a Buddha. Rahula will no doubt be delighted to learn he will be a Buddha, but my goodness, Rahula will have a cosmically long path ahead of him to get there. I wish him many magical castles along the way to give him occasional rest.

I want to be clear that I mean none of this in jest--I can't get to the spirit of the Sutra until I understand the literal story being told, which I currently don't.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Mike

This is not a naive question at all. It was a genuine concern for early Mahayana Buddhists. The whole concept of a bodhisattva was inseparably tied to the cycle of rebirth. We brought this up some time ago during a meeting. In those early times, though it continues in most Mahayana traditions, aspiring to become a Buddha was considered a great sacrifice because it required countless rebirths before one could be born into a world without a Buddha. The Lotus Sutra is quite clever in introducing different world-systems, each with its own Buddha, because this creates more opportunities for these new bodhisattvas to fulfill their aspiration.

Still, the essence of the bodhisattva’s sacrifice is the immense amount of time required to practice, endure suffering, and cultivate the qualities necessary to become a Buddha, just as the bodhisattva Gotama did. This is why initially, the bodhisattva path was not something offered to everyone, but it was rather expected to be taken on by just a few good men.

So, what the Buddha is promising Rahula is that he will eventually become a Buddha—likely within this very world-system—since, before his own awakening, he must be reborn as the son of the Buddha that Ananda is destined to become. Until that lifetime arrives, however, he will always be the eldest son of each Buddha.

Regarding simultaneous rebirths, I see no indication in the Lotus Sutra that they were conceived in that way. In this case, it also seems that the Buddha is situating Ananda and Rahula in the same world-system. The Buddhas and bodhisattvas who appear from other worlds in these narratives also return to their own lands. Even when some bodhisattvas from other worlds offer to help Shakyamuni teach the Dharma Flower Sutra here, he sends them away, saying he already has plenty of bodhisattvas in this world.

Of course, the different Mahayanas in those times could have held a variety of interpretations and perspectives on these topics, just as they do today, with more or less variation.

Hope that helps a bit
sat lah

**MikeH** · 04-22-2026, 07:22 PM

Thanks, Bion. Yes, I remember this coming up at a meeting. But I guess this is one of those times when it takes a couple of stories to make something really sink in for me! Now I’m starting to understand what the bodhisattva’s sacrifice entails.

gassho,
satlah
mike

**Ryūdō-Liúdào** · 04-23-2026, 03:41 AM

In my experience as a teacher, I've found it to be really spot on in how the student must actively show up as a student for real learning to occur. I think this is also why many struggle when it comes to teaching or learning with someone who is close to us; the dynamic changes the level of focus and expectations.

That being said, I feel like a lot of what this chapter is focusing on are the facts that being in proximity to the Buddha doesn't equal completion, that familiarity with the teachings doesn't equal realization, and that even "insiders" still remain practitioners.

To put it more poetically:

Some sit closest to the Buddha, and still have far to go.
Some sit far away and hear clearly.
Distance isn’t measured in steps, but in seeing.
Even the front row can miss the point.

Gasshō,
流道-Ryūdō-Liúdào
Satlah

**Ryūdō-Liúdào** · 04-23-2026, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by Bion

No matter how significant the changes in my personality have been, they seem to go largely unacknowledged by some family members. At the same time, I seem to be more sensitive to the triggers that have built up over a lifetime and now permeate our family relationships. As a result, it becomes difficult for them to learn anything from me, for me to teach them, and sometimes even for me to learn from them.

Even the Buddha at times told his śramaṇas not to return to their hometowns, because the people there would “call them by their old names.” I interpret this to mean that they would only know and judge you as the old you, and therefore treat you as they always did.

I’ve read a bit about this in psychology long ago. I think the term is "Identity Foreclosure," aka, how people tend to hold onto a fixed image of us and then filter everything through that. So even when we grow, they might not really register it, or they notice the one small thing that fits the old version, and often push us into it. Unsurprisingly, it’s really dang triggering. It’s not just disagreement, but more an attack on our identity. It can feel like the version of us we’ve worked to become isn’t even being seen.

And yeah… I find it kind of funny that the best way to work through this ends up being sitting on a cushion, staring at a wall, and slowly learning how not to take the whole “me” quite so seriously. When you figure out how to really drop the “I” from “I’m angry/frustrated/hurt/etc.,” please do me a favor and pass me a walkthrough!

Gasshō,
流道-Ryūdō-Liúdào
Satlah

**Seiraku** · 04-23-2026, 07:40 AM

I’m wondering about the group of 8,000, then 2,000 get predictions, so were 6,000 left over? I also thought Reeves’ version of the 4 vows was interesting, #3 being to study all the teachings.

On a cosmic note, I like imagining what if we are in some long string of universes being born over and over,,,

Gassho,
Seiraku
satlah

**Bion** · 04-23-2026, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by Seiraku

I’m wondering about the group of 8,000, then 2,000 get predictions, so were 6,000 left over? I also thought Reeves’ version of the 4 vows was interesting, #3 being to study all the teachings.

On a cosmic note, I like imagining what if we are in some long string of universes being born over and over,,,

Gassho,
Seiraku
satlah

“Teaching” can be understood as a translation or interpretation of “Dharma gate.” Other translations, such as the official Sotoshu version, render this line as “Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them.” Jundo chose the “perceive reality” translation, and you can read more about his reasons for that choice here: https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/tre...igu-seigan-mon

The vows can be expressed in many ways, depending on how philosophical or how technical one wishes to be. It is a profound teaching that can be explored in many forms.

gassho
sat lah

**Myojo** · 04-23-2026, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Chikyou

I feel that teaching (and being taught by) those close to you is definitely more difficult. In a “professional” or a more casual relationship, there isn’t as much pressure as there tends to be when the person is close to you. Even if you aren’t judging those close to you more harshly (which you might be) there’s an element of “I don’t want to disappoint my brother” from him and an element of “it’s really extra important I help him, he’s my brother” from you. There’s a real lack of objectivity that changes the dynamic.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

What you say is painfully right.
My brother had a conversation with my Mum's personal carer in the middle of his last relapse where he said he could not bring himself to call me as he didn't want to let me down. A few days later my Mum's personal carer called me but ti was too late.

**Myojo** · 04-23-2026, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Bion

“Teaching” can be understood as a translation or interpretation of “Dharma gate.” Other translations, such as the official Sotoshu version, render this line as “Dharma gates are boundless, I vow to enter them.” Jundo chose the “perceive reality” translation, and you can read more about his reasons for that choice here: https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/tre...igu-seigan-mon

The vows can be expressed in many ways, depending on how philosophical or how technical one wishes to be. It is a profound teaching that can be explored in many forms.

gassho
sat lah

Yes, there are many different translations but thay all drive at the same thing.

**Chiko** · 04-23-2026, 04:19 PM

I really enjoyed Reeves’ line: “Real learning, transformative learning, only takes place when the teaching is integrated into one’s very life and everyday actions.” This has immediate value to our practice, and I saw a connection with John Daido Loori's take on liturgy: “Zen isn’t a practice one does in the world; it is the practice of life itself.”

I do wonder if Reeves is holding back a little when he says, “our very salvation, our awakening, is a matter of helping others.” This is certainly righteous and helpful to point out, but for me it illuminates a recurring trend in his analysis of the Lotus Sutra, and perhaps the Lotus Sutra itself, which is to make a “thing” out of enlightenment. Ananda was unable to reach that “highly sought stage” and then had a breakthrough the night before he spoke before the council. Innumerable shravakas sought reassurance from the Buddha of their future enlightenment, and the Buddha himself told Ananda that they had mutually sought Buddhahood in a previous life.

We help others because we see (or hope to see) that any separation between us is a mental construct we tend to believe wholeheartedly (and one that our societies promote, and our habits reinforce). The thousands of shravakas seeking reassurance feels like someone standing in the center of London, trying to determine if they are, in fact, in London. There’s no other version of London to get to, just look around! Perhaps the Lotus Sutra is doing us a service by showing us the trouble that arises from objectifying enlightenment, but I do wish Reeves would explore that a bit more.

Gassho,
Chiko
st/lah

**Tenryu** · 04-23-2026, 04:23 PM

Reading this chapter, I had the same reaction as the first time I read the Lotus Sutra: “These monks are really something… poor Buddha.” It almost felt like children in the back seat asking, “Are we there yet?”

There was a moment of just shaking my head. Even shravakas and bodhisattvas sounding impatient, wanting reassurance, something like a promise. The image of a “golden carrot” came up.

My first thought was: I’m not like that. I don’t feel impatient in my practice, and I don’t feel a need for reassurance.

But then… is that actually true?

And if there really isn’t such a need, what is that about?

That question is just sitting there for now.

Originally posted by Bion

There’s also the saying, from the Bible, that no prophet is accepted in his hometown. I find that oddly true. No matter how significant the changes in my personality have been, they seem to go largely unacknowledged by some family members. At the same time, I seem to be more sensitive to the triggers that have built up over a lifetime and now permeate our family relationships. As a result, it becomes difficult for them to learn anything from me, for me to teach them, and sometimes even for me to learn from them.

Even the Buddha at times told his śramaṇas not to return to their hometowns, because the people there would “call them by their old names.” I interpret this to mean that they would only know and judge you as the old you, and therefore treat you as they always did.

Thank you, Bion!
This feels very close! Some family members still relate to me as if I were 17. That never feels particularly good. Even when something shifts, it doesn’t seem to register that way for them.

At the same time there’s a slight smile.
That friction is probably not unrelated to why I kept looking for my own way. Wanting to see things more clearly, both in myself and in others. In a strange way, I feel grateful for that friction.

Gasshō,
Tenryū
st•LaH

Stories of the Lotus Sutra - Chapter 12: Ananda and Rahula

Stories of the Lotus Sutra - Chapter 12: Ananda and Rahula

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