Stories of the Lotus Sutra - Chapter 8: One Great Cloud and Many Kinds of Plants

[Bion]

image-11.jpg Hello, friends. I hope you’re having, or have had, a good Monday.

We’re back with a new chapter of our book. I’m amazed at how quickly time is flying and that we’ve already been reading and discussing together for eight weeks. I’m truly enjoying this and am so grateful for all of you.

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Reading Assignment: Chapter 8 - One Great Cloud and Many Kinds of Plants

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Please take time to read, then come back and share your reflections.

In keeping with our chapter, just as rain nourishes many kinds of plants in different ways, so does our study group. Each of us benefits from it differently and is nourished and challenged according to our own needs. What matters is that we each bear our own fruit in our own time.

As you read, please keep our two guiding questions in mind, along with anything else that comes up for you:

1. What is one thing I’ve learned from this chapter?
2. What is one question that arises?

Our next Book Club meeting is scheduled for next Saturday. Please check the Practice Calendar for the correct time, especially now after Daylight Saving Time.

For additional inspiration for reflection questions, please visit our Study Page here.

Enjoy the reading!

With metta, and in gassho
Bion

[Taiji]

Hello, friends!

My current work situation is unfortunately such that I need to officially step back from participating in the book study this time around. I look forward to continuing to see folks at zazenkai and around the boards. Thank you to Bion and to everyone for all the fabulous discussion!

Gassho,
Taiji
Sat/LAH Today

[Bion]

Hello, friends!

My current work situation is unfortunately such that I need to officially step back from participating in the book study this time around. I look forward to continuing to see folks at zazenkai and around the boards. Thank you to Bion and to everyone for all the fabulous discussion!

Gassho,
Taiji
Sat/LAH Today

Feel free to hop back in whenever you can or want to, even if it's cause you see something in a comment that you feel called to respond to! We'll surely miss you at the Zoom meetings! See you at zazenkai!

Gassho
sat lah

[Ryūdō-Liúdào]

Thinking of how the rains of Dharma fall equally upon all the various plants, no matter how good or bad, wise or foolish, big or small, this thought came to mind;

A tree notices a shrub nearby.

“Ah,” thinks the tree, “I remember when I was like that.”

It leans over and says,
“Don’t worry. One day, you’ll grow tall like me.”

The shrub laughs.

“Tall?” it says.
“Is that what you’ve been doing all this time?”

Gasshō,
流道-Ryūdō-Liúdào
Satlah

[Hokuu]

Thought #1
There is some tension between the parable where the sravaka way is presented in a way which highlights its partiality, and the simile which places an accent on how rain falls on all types of plants, making no distinctions. The same tension seems to have appeared earlier in the sutra - it's either that all the vehicles are equally good or the bodhisattva way is in some way better, fuller, or whatnot.
I don't know why it's so, but my guess is it's because the sutra, as so many religious texts in all traditions, is a patchwork of texts, redactions, and improvements over centuries, which explains how contradictory ideas end up in one text.

Thought #2
Rain falling on all - it's hard not to recall Matthew's "for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous".
I like the idea, but it makes me cringe sometimes when the implications seem to be that there is no difference in how we live, no accountability or responsibility, only OnE uNiVeRsAl LoVe


satlah

[Bion]

Thought #1
There is some tension between the parable where the sravaka way is presented in a way which highlights its partiality, and the simile which places an accent on how rain falls on all types of plants, making no distinctions. The same tension seems to have appeared earlier in the sutra - it's either that all the vehicles are equally good or the bodhisattva way is in some way better, fuller, or whatnot.
I don't know why it's so, but my guess is it's because the sutra, as so many religious texts in all traditions, is a patchwork of texts, redactions, and improvements over centuries, which explains how contradictory ideas end up in one text.

Thought #2
Rain falling on all - it's hard not to recall Matthew's "for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous".
I like the idea, but it makes me cringe sometimes when the implications seem to be that there is no difference in how we live, no accountability or responsibility, only OnE uNiVeRsAl LoVe


satlah

On thought number 1: there is clearly an evolution over time in the bodhisattva ideal—from a path meant only for a few truly dedicated people willing to sacrifice themselves to take on the role of a Buddha, to a universal ideal presented as the perfect fit for all. It always fascinates me that, for a long period while the bodhisattva ideal was taking shape, a śramaṇa might aspire to it while his preceptor—the one who ordained him, his main teacher—was a śrāvaka aiming for arhatship. And that was fine. But in time, rigidity began to appear and then, well… we know the rest.

On thought number 2: I am with you! Metaphors are valuable in a specific context, and I like them when they’re treated that way. Yes, the Dharma is available to all, but each person still needs to listen to it and practice; otherwise, it is of no use. In a previous story in the Lotus, didn’t five thousand people get up and leave when they heard the teaching?


gassho
sat lah

[Chikyou]

I’m a little disappointed that the parable of medicinal plants is missing from the translation we’re working with - I wonder why it was excluded from some translations and not others? I would like to read it, I’ll have to seek it out.

I don’t necessarily see the bodhisattva ideal as being “superior” in the sense that it’s better than all the other ways. As reincarnation and enlightenment were seen as a continual process, it seems to me that everyone at any stage on the path would eventually wind up a bodhisattva, and then a Buddha, just as a child is not yet an adolescent, or an adult, but being a child isn’t inferior to being an adult, it’s just a stage on the way that we all go through.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Tenryu]

I was getting my feet wet with the rain there too.

The rain metaphor is beautiful, but it also feels a bit unstable when I look at it more closely. (Can’t help it but to fly my plant nerd flag here.) Not every plant does well with rain! Some need very little, some can even drown in it.

I would say it’s not only about the rain being there for all, but also about conditions, timing, and how it is received. The Dharma may be everywhere, but that doesn’t mean it is always taken in. Sometimes a little Dharma misting is in order, or even long dry spells to make it work. On the other hand some plants even harvest rain with specialized canopies.

Maybe that also says something about how we meet others. Not everyone needs the same “amount,” or the same way of being approached. If I try to see the Buddha in someone, it might also mean allowing that this Buddha doesn’t look or respond the way I expect.

Just a few thoughts that came to mind.

Gasshō,
Tenryū
sat•lah

[Bion]

I don’t necessarily see the bodhisattva ideal as being “superior” in the sense that it’s better than all the other ways. As reincarnation and enlightenment were seen as a continual process, it seems to me that everyone at any stage on the path would eventually wind up a bodhisattva, and then a Buddha, just as a child is not yet an adolescent, or an adult, but being a child isn’t inferior to being an adult, it’s just a stage on the way that we all go through.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

Well, if we talk about it in the context of the very early Buddhist belief in rebirth, then attaining arhatship meant no more rebirth; therefore, one could not continue to be reborn until they were reborn in a world without a Buddha, where they could then attain Buddhahood. The bodhisattva had to commit to rigorous practice, all the while preventing themselves from attaining arhatship. It was meant to be a dedicated effort to continue to remain in samsara. It was considered a higher goal, as only a few were willing to aim for that, since it took endless lifetimes for each bodhisattva to get their turn at becoming a Buddha, as there could be only one Buddha in the world at a time. Over time, it became a "superior path", with some going so far as to misinterpret the arhat goal as selfish and self-centered. It continues to this day, actually, folks entirely disregarding that when one practices the recollection of Buddha, one says: "the Blessed one is an ARHAT, fully enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct... etc".

gassho
sat lah

[Chikyou]

Well, if we talk about it in the context of the very early Buddhist belief in rebirth, then attaining arhatship meant no more rebirth; therefore, one could not continue to be reborn until being reborn in a world without a Buddha, where they could then attain Buddhahood. The bodhisattva had to commit to rigorous practice, all the while preventing themselves from attaining arhatship. It was meant to be a dedicated effort to continue to remain in samsara. It was considered a higher goal, as only a few were willing to aim for that, since it took endless lifetimes for each bodhisattva to get their turn at becoming a Buddha, as there could be only one Buddha in the world at a time. Over time, it became a "superior path", with some going so far as to misinterpret the arhat goal as selfish and self-centered. It continues to this day, actually, folks entirely disregarding that when one practices the recollection of Buddha, one says: "the Blessed one is an ARHAT, fully enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct... etc".

gassho
sat lah

Aha! So this ties together for me the idea that bodhisattvas specifically choose to put off their own enlightenment until all sentient beings are saved. I have been hearing (and repeating) that for years, but the context didn’t really click for me.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Bion]

Aha! So this ties together for me the idea that bodhisattvas specifically choose to put off their own enlightenment until all sentient beings are saved. I have been hearing (and repeating) that for years, but the context didn’t really click for me.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

I think, for the sake of clarity, and to separate terms differently understood in different contexts and times, I would use the word liberation, to say they vowed to postpone their own liberation from the samsaric cycle.

gassho
sat la

[Myojo]

The main subject of this chapter and particularly of the commentary seems to be the universality of the Buddha Dharma.
I have always felt that the Dharma was a naturally occuring phenomenon which was brilliantly illustrated by the teaching of the Buddha but not in any way the property of Buddhism.
Other religious ways also attempt to describe the Dharma - in particular Advaita Vedanta.
For me the Buddha's teaching is the most clear and practical attempt to convey Dharma in words.
To be honest though it is only through the practices first of Vioassana andcthen if Zazen that any real deep experience if the Dharma has arisen for me.
My understanding has developed very slowly.
At first I held the Shravaka view that Arhat was all we could aspire to but over the years I have begun to comprehend the Mahayana aspiration to Buddhahood.
I also see Buddha in others more readily.

[MikeH]

I really enjoyed this chapter and its stories. The simile of the rain got me thinking both about my own experience and about the text and how the two relate.

I remember that before I ever started practicing and reading within the Buddhist tradition (before the purest Dharma Rain fell on me, you might say), I was longing for something that was missing from other paths that I had tried--other religions, philosophy, literature, science. When I was first introduced to the practice I now follow, I felt nourished. It felt like I learned something new, but it felt much more like I remembered something I've always known deep down. It was like I was returning home somehow.

So that got me thinking about the rain and plants. Rain can nourish all plants because of the properties of the rain, yes, but also (and maybe more importantly) because of the properties of plants--they (some anyway) have evolved to receive rain, and roughly 80% of the weight of a plant already is rain (water). The rain and plants are made of the same stuff and that's what makes rain nourishing for plants. So when a plant receives the rain, it receives something new in one sense, but maybe more importantly, it just gains more of what it already is and must always be (water) if it is to avoid drying up and perishing.

What I learned: Maybe nothing? But the above is what this tiny plant sucked up from the rain of this chapter.

Question: Is this idea that rain (teachings) and plants (all sentient beings) share the same fundamental buddha nature present in the Lotus Sutra and Reeves' chapter on it, or am I reading too much Zen (or my interpretation of Zen, for whatever that's worth) into both? The story clearly says "same rain, different plants," but I guess I'm trying to make it say "rain, plants--what's the difference?"

gassho,
satlah,
Mike

[Chiko]

I was especially taken by the simile of the clay pots in this chapter: "The fact that the pots are made of one clay does not make the pots any less real."

All things are Buddha nature, empty of inherent selfhood, beyond labels that we assign the world so that we can function in it efficiently, and ultimately preserve our sense of physical and intellectual self. I think that Zen practice, when viewed as a framework to help us realize this oneness, might be mistaken for cold austerity, even tamping down the individual with its uniformity (I'm thinking of formal monasteries here).

What value do our individual, unique qualities bring to a Sangha? I have a friend who makes me laugh and cooks excellent food, while another is someone with whom I can speak deeply. Each create the whole of a social life. I think it's no different here, being especially social and supportive despite connecting people from all over. Each plant bearing different fruit gives us opportunities to check our own understanding of our practice, of our assumptions and places where we defend our sense of self...

Gassho,
Chiko
st/lah

[Shinsoku]

I’m struck by how much of this chapter hinges on belief—not as faith, but as a kind of perceptual reorganization. The blind man doesn’t just gain sight; he comes to believe he can see everything. The Buddha tells the sravakas they’re actually bodhisattvas, whether they believed it or not.

Is the Buddha correcting their understanding, or is he creating a new understanding? If the dharma is one and all beings have Buddha-nature, then the sravakas were always on the bodhisattva path. But if that’s true, why did they ever need to believe otherwise? And if they didn’t need to, why does the sutra spend so much time showing us people—like Shariputra—being shocked and transformed by this revelation?

What I learned: The Lotus Sutra seems to be working with the idea that what you believe about yourself shapes what you can become, or at least how you practice. I certainly picked up on this theme from the previous chapter on the rich father and the poor son. Similarly, being told “you are a bodhisattva” might not change the ultimate truth, but it can change everything about how you walk the path.

I have missed you all the past few weeks and enjoyed catching up and reading your thoughts on this week’s reading assignment.

Gassho,
Shinsoku
ST/LAH