Stories of the Lotus Sutra - Chapter 2: Stories of the Lotus Sutra

[Bion]

Friends,

I will be boarding a plane during this week’s discussion, and unable to participate in the normal sense, but i will be with you in my heart.

One point I found interesting that I hope is discussed: Manjushri’s explanation that the Lotus Sutra was expounded by Buddhas in the past. I think it nicely frames the Dharma as universal and timeless, or perhaps broadens our sense of time…necessary for settling in to these stories.

With bows,
Chiko
st lag

We'll miss you, for sure! Have a safe and pleasant flight

Gassho
sat lah

[Bion]

Thank you all for coming and for participating! I coult not be more grateful.
The recording of the meeting is now available on our Study Page.

Gassho
sat lah

[Maro]

Thank you for keeping us in your heart :-)

Gassho
Maro
satlah

[Maro]

Friends,

I will be boarding a plane during this week’s discussion, and unable to participate in the normal sense, but i will be with you in my heart.

Trying again:
thank you for keeping us in your heart Chiko :-)
Gassho
Maro
sat/lah

[Choujou]

Hi everyone!

In this chapter I find it interesting the emphasis on not only paying attention to the teachings in the stories, but the stories themselves… how there is something to be gained through them with being more in touch with the world around us. I recently watched a movie that did exactly this… while there were teachings in the movie itself, the story itself made them “come alive”… from abstract theory to real life demonstration and execution. This is why stories have always been and will always be important to human beings (and why Netflix makes so much money!)
I also appreciate the emphasis on creativity… too often in our modern world is creativity stifled for the sake of what is, what’s comfortable, almost a societal complacency. It is not too surprising as human beings tend to try to resist change. We grasp and cling…I think these stories ask us to bend and flex with the wind of the lotus sutra, and not be so rigid in our thoughts and ideas. There is going to be some “crazy” stuff in this I feel, but it’s all meant to drive us beyond the words themselves, to a knowing… an understanding, and to also inspire us to further develop expedient means and our understanding of the Dharma. I think this is a wonderful thing… it allows us to express the Dharma in our own creative ways, rather than a micro-managed dogmatic form. Every moment is treated as something new… things don’t always have to be as they are and that in fact change is ever present, and these stories perhaps help us to feel more comfortable in the uncertainty, and that we can make positive change and do good for others. As reeves says:

“These little gems of stories have within them the power to persuade readers that they have the potential and power not only to make more of their own lives but also to make a contribution to the good of others.”

Gassho,
Choujou

sat/lah today

[Shujin]

Reeves questions the functions of the stories in the Lotus Sutra in this chapter. While he offers his own answer, it's an interesting question to ask ourselves. What is the function of the stories in the Lotus Sutra in our own life?

Reeves notes: "there is no need to have seen any burning house for a house to burn in my mind" This may be true for him, but I don't think that it's true for everyone. Derrida's work in deconstruction is a logical opposite to Reeves' perspective. When Zhaozhou spoke of the cypress tree in the garden, he was not using a metaphor.

Reeves writes : "... the problems in the Lotus Sutra are never solved by the book, rather by imagination." However we solve problems in this life, it is a helpful aspect of Buddhism that we shouldn't rely upon dogma or scripted moments. Unfortunately, this is a trap that we as humans fall for all too often.

Whatever my issues with Reeves elsewhere, I agree wholeheartedly that "... what we do determines to what degree the work of Shakyamuni Buddha gets done in the world." and that " we will be saved only be bodhisattvas in this world."

Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

[Bion]

Reeves writes : "... the problems in the Lotus Sutra are never solved by the book, rather by imagination." However we solve problems in this life, it is a helpful aspect of Buddhism that we shouldn't rely upon dogma or scripted moments. Unfortunately, this is a trap that we as humans fall for all too often.


Gassho,
Shujin
st/lah

I find that comment from Reeves interesting too, but because he is referring to stories constructed precisely to highlight specific teachings. Imagination is informed by one's mind, so an untrained, unskilful mind will imagine things totally different from a trained, and skilful one. In the same breath, the sutra proceeds to emphasize the importance of all practitioners venerating it and following its teachings, copying and sharing it. I actually mentioned this this morning, when I was speaking about the Buddha's final teachings to Ananda. In that episode, the Buddha tells Ananda he has no intention of leaving any last instructions and urges him instead to take refuge in himself and in the Dharma alone.

To me, that's interesting because the Buddha clearly balances reliance on oneself with reliance on the "mirror" of the teachings. The teachings are initially needed to inform the kind of "imagination" Reeves mentions—an imagination that allows us to embody the Dharma in real-life situations, which are unscripted and unpredictable.

In the same Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra, the Buddha also speaks about how one ought to approach teachings. One "should neither believe them nor reject them unless what is asserted has been examined and found to be true in light of the scriptures, the rules of discipline, or in terms of its origin and its harmony with the system of authentic belief."

This seems like a good balance—a kind of safety net against becoming conceited or arrogant. Or something along those lines.


Gassho
sat lah

[Seido-nigo]

Shujin's point about language and mental constructs resonates with me.

Bion, I don't think I fully understood your point about "Thus have I heard" until I had a look at the book Kotei referenced this morning, Two Buddhas Side by Side, and the historical context you've alluded to in terms of the Lotus Sutra being a constructed narrative serving a wider purpose within Buddhism at that time. I am all for taking in the teachings within the stories of the Sutra but having more historical context is helpful as I don't think I am internally referring to the same constructs the text is referring to? I'm hovering somewhere at "inconscious incompetence" and "conscious incompetence" on the learning curve as I don't know when simple phrases are referring to specific constructs..

[Bion]

Shujin's point about language and mental constructs resonates with me.

Bion, I don't think I fully understood your point about "Thus have I heard" until I had a look at the book Kotei referenced this morning, Two Buddhas Side by Side, and the historical context you've alluded to in terms of the Lotus Sutra being a constructed narrative serving a wider purpose within Buddhism at that time. I am all for taking in the teachings within the stories of the Sutra but having more historical context is helpful as I don't think I am internally referring to the same constructs the text is referring to? I'm hovering somewhere at "inconscious incompetence" and "conscious incompetence" on the learning curve as I don't know when simple phrases are referring to specific constructs..

I think Reeves might, on purpose, avoid tackling certain historical aspects, precisely because they are beyond the scope of this book. The task here, I feel, is to engage with the stories contained in the sutra, controversies and history aside. At certain points, however, especially in these early chapters, a little context can be very helpful in clarifying some of the things Reeves alludes to but never fully explains.

Gassho
sat lah

[Kinshu]

Hello everyone!

I was watching the videos of the discussions here; I couldn't be present, but I watched them today. I was very impressed and grateful. I would like to thank TreeLeaf Sangha for this study opportunity, such a deep and high-quality study, free and open to people all over the world in an online and direct format. I am deeply grateful; these monks are true Bodhisattvas!

I took some notes from my reading of last week's chapter, and I'm going to share those observations with you here:

First, Reeves is still introducing the reader to the Lotus Sutra.

One point that caught my attention is that he says words can make things happen, and I truly believe that, and it's even easier to make those things happen in our imagination. So we should read the Sutra filtering its teachings and using the parables and stories as a didactic illustration or examples of how skillful means work. All that enchantment and magic serves to draw attention to the teaching itself.
Although the term "Buddha-nature" did not yet exist at the time the Sutra was written, the text already conveys the teaching that all sentient beings possess Buddha-nature and may become enlightened beings in the future, or even here and now. When I read the "prophecies" in the Sutra itself, I had the impression that the following lines of the text would say: "I also have a prophecy for Kinshu-san, he too will attain Buddhahood and be worthy of praise...admired by the world...etc..." hehehe!!!!

Reeves also mentions the importance of other worlds or dimensions, but also of this world here. For this world here that the Buddha teaches the Dharma and where all beings in the universe come to learn and hear the Lotus Sutra. A good reference for the here and now. And here there are many Bodhisattvas capable of reading, copying and even teaching the Sutra.

And going back to the "illustrations," we should use our creativity to be Bodhisattvas ourselves in this world and make it a better place for all beings!

Gasshô
Kinshū
Sat/lah

[Shui_Di]

I just finished reading the chapter two.

I think the Lotus Sutra teach with stories, so the reader can get the subtle core of the teaching, allowing the reader to find himself about the essence of the stories. Because when we find it ourselve, it stays easier then when we are being told.

This kind of story of holy scriptures also appears in any other religion text. Like in Christianity or any Hinduism text. In ancient India culture, they even has no calendar system. In Buddha time, India even has no writing system. They memorize all the teaching. That's why Indian people like to preach teaching with story telling where it become like a folk story, so it is easier to be remembered. This will make the story always be present. Because Indian people in Buddha time didn't notice the date too. That's why many Sutras only says, Evame suttam. This is what I heard, when the Buddha was in etc etc. So when we read a sutra, we are not thinking that this is what The Buddha said 2500 years ago. The Sutra brings Buddha at the present when we read the Sutra.

So I think the style of Lotus Sutra is the same. This sutra is taught with the story that bring us enter to the "spiritual world" of Shakyamuni Buddha right here and now.

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

[Chikyou]

I just finished reading the chapter two.

I think the Lotus Sutra teach with stories, so the reader can get the subtle core of the teaching, allowing the reader to find himself about the essence of the stories. Because when we find it ourselve, it stays easier then when we are being told.

This kind of story of holy scriptures also appears in any other religion text. Like in Christianity or any Hinduism text. In ancient India culture, they even has no calendar system. In Buddha time, India even has no writing system. They memorize all the teaching. That's why Indian people like to preach teaching with story telling where it become like a folk story, so it is easier to be remembered. This will make the story always be present. Because Indian people in Buddha time didn't notice the date too. That's why many Sutras only says, Evame suttam. This is what I heard, when the Buddha was in etc etc. So when we read a sutra, we are not thinking that this is what The Buddha said 2500 years ago. The Sutra brings Buddha at the present when we read the Sutra.

So I think the style of Lotus Sutra is the same. This sutra is taught with the story that bring us enter to the "spiritual world" of Shakyamuni Buddha right here and now.

Gassho, Mujo
Stlah

Your words here triggered a realization for me. I said “I love the Lotus Sutra” even before I’d read it (and now that I’m reading it, I love it even more!!!) because I knew the stories. I’d heard the parables in Dharma Talks, and when I saw them referenced elsewhere, I instantly recognized them. I could paraphrase them, and would sometimes tell my friends about them. I knew them, years before I read them in their original context. They became a part of my practice, even though I hadn’t yet seen the source material.

I think, what you have said here is as true today as it was 2500 years ago. Stories have the power to permeate, and transform, societies.

It leads me to reflect on what other stories permeate and transform our societies, for better or worse. Every society has its own stories, serving all sorts of purposes, some wholesome and some not-so.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō