The Platform Sutra: Sections 54-57, p269-274 (275-280 on Kindle)

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  • Kokuu
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 7280

    The Platform Sutra: Sections 54-57, p269-274 (275-280 on Kindle)

    Dear all

    And so we come to our final week of studying The Platform Sutra with sections 54-57. Thank you all so much for remaining so engaged over the past six months of reading.

    In section 54, we are told that Huineng has passed and his remains are interred in a ceremonial urn. From this, a bright light shone forth and was said to illuminate the sky for three full days.

    The Tsungpao edition says that there was an issue of where the master’s remains would be received and that was solved by burning incense and praying. As the incense moved towards Tsaohsi, that became his final resting place.

    Currently, a mummified body, believed to be Huineng, resides at Nanhua Temple (https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/2007313320/) which Red Pine tells us is the modern name for Tsaohsi.

    Section 55 of the sutra tells us that The Platform Sutra was compiled by Fa-hai and this was passed on to his colleague Tao-chi before he died, with Tao-chi similarly passing it to Wu-chen. Red Pine says that this is in keeping with the theme of this sutra replacing the dharma robe in the transmission lineage.

    Section 56 states that if we are to teach the sutra, it is to be given to people of superior wisdom.

    The final section, 57, was an addition by Fa-hai himself, who makes this clear in the first line. It underlines section 56 in encouraging transmission of the sutra only to those with the most sincere practice, who can then themselves use it to liberate those of lesser capacity.


    Since there are no obvious questions to ask regarding these final passages, I would instead very much like to hear your opinions on the entire sutra.

    How have you found reading this sutra?
    Which parts particularly spoke to you and will likely remain with you?
    Were there any parts which seem confusing or somewhat jarring to our modern take on Zen?


    Deep bows to you all
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
  • Kokuu
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 7280

    #2
    Thank you for your perspective, Niall.

    You might know that dharma transmission began somewhat as a way of giving Ch'an Buddhism in China some legitmacy by demonstrating an unbroken succession back to Shakyamuni Buddha. It was also used to keep temples and monasteries in particular lineages, and was, to my knowledge, unheard of in India.

    However, there is another side of a teacher confirming a student's experience. Do they need to do that for the student's benefit? At that stage, you would think and hope not. But what it does do is show the wider community that there is a recognised teacher who vouches for the ability of this person to embody and pass on the dharma after a long period of working with them.

    Is that a total failsafe? I would say no, but it is something akin to a letter of reference for a job. Potential students and others still, however, should go by what they see in any person who is transmitted (or, as my old kung fu teacher used to say, don't fight the belt, fight the man i.e. don't give undue reverence to a black belt) rather than assume they are the real deal. In a similar way, a medical or law degree shows that a person has attained a certain level of knowledge and understanding but they still may be unreliable at carrying out that role.

    So, I would say that it is important to see dharma transmission for what it is - a teacher recognising the embodiment of the dharma in their student - but not elevate it to something that means transmitted teachers are necessarily better, infallible or have greater understanding that those who have not been transmitted, for whatever reason.

    There is also a ceremonial side to transmission which is reflected in the sutra, and the transmission lineage allows us to pay respect to our ancestors, and their part in embodying the dharma and passing it on to the next generation. Does it need a robe, bowl or sutra to do that? No, but it can be a nice to have an image of something physical to represent the ineffable, just as the rakusu represents and reminds us of our taking of the precepts

    As with most things Zen, dharma transmission is both an important part of the tradition and also totally empty. I would say that seeing just one side is only seeing half of the story, but we are not here to dismiss anyone's point of view or kick someone out for holding it (well, I am not at least, not that Jundo would let me ).

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 42502

      #3
      Congratulations to Kokuu, and all participants here, for your great effort and insights these past months. Well done. The 6th Ancestor rests content.

      Gassho, Jundo
      stlah
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Hosui
        Member
        • Sep 2024
        • 166

        #4
        I’d like to echo Jundo’s praise, Kokuu, of you holding this reading group together. Thank you for researching, setting, and facilitating each reading: that was a lot of work for you. You’ve encouraged, provoked, and stimulated us to share our thoughts in a public forum, which, for me, has acted like Manjusri’s sword in cutting through my delusion. I’ve learned so much from reading everyone else’s response too: thank you to the whole group. I’ve especially appreciated the support between members of the reading group, which overall has shaped my impression of the entire sutra as transmitting its teaching to a sangha, not just to individual readers.

        These past 6 months I’ve looked forward to receiving our Monday ‘assignments’, to reading and re-reading, and to sitting with the impressions the sutra’s sections have made on me. I know my practice has benefited from this pausing and ‘sitting-with’ the reading, before responding.

        The section covering the ‘three bodies’ aspect of the buddha (i.e. dharmakaya, sambkogakaya, nirmanakaya) was the part that spoke to me the most. I’ve struggled with the trikaya up to now, and the chance to study this in greater detail was helpful. These sections will remain with me, partly because I was on a glorious vacation with my son in Boston MA during that particular study week, and partly because my practice skipped a beat from sitting with the trikaya.

        I’m a little suspicious of clarity (and also modernity), preferring the uncertainty of confusion and of language that jarrs. I dunno: finding a surplus in excess of my limited understanding just feels right.

        Hi Niall - The theatre of wishy washy zen transmission, IMHO, is akin to the theatre of the absurd; it’s a powerful non-linguistic antidote to excessive rationality and logical scepticism, and especially of over-bearing personal opinions. Zen transmission also allows expression of some pretty radical humility and deference to those wiser, which is never a bad thing for a would-be bodhisattva.

        Gassho
        Hosui
        sat/lah

        Comment

        • Kokuu
          Dharma Transmitted Priest
          • Nov 2012
          • 7280

          #5
          Hosui

          Thank you to you and everyone else who has been following this study and responding to the posts week after week. I was just saying to Jundo yesterday that it is normal for read-alongs and other events at Treeleaf to begin with a number of enthusiastic participants but that generally fades due to busyness or other reasons. This book study has been notable for the diligence and sincerity of those taking part and I have really enjoyed reading along with you all.

          Deep bows
          Kokuu

          Comment

          • Onsho
            Member
            • Aug 2022
            • 272

            #6
            How have you found reading this sutra?

            This was my second read though. I found the pacing to be really helpful and enjoyable. I would typically read the passages and questions but not answer till the second or third day. Having the time to process my thoughts really refined my point of view into a more compact response. The commentary by Red Pine was excellent, I wouldn't have had nearly the same experience without it. Your insights have been fantastic as well Kokuu. Its been very meaningful to do this along side someone who has deep experience with the text and graceful way of sharing it.

            Which parts particularly spoke to you and will likely remain with you?
            The trikaya.

            This is something i want to understand well. Domyo Burk has a fantastic episode on her podcast about this and it goes even deeper that what we covered. I want to steep myself in it and see it in everything i do.

            Trying to teach something to someone who isn't ready to learn, is a recurring theme. I think that caution very much applies to most of life in one way or another.


            Were there any parts which seem confusing or somewhat jarring to our modern take on Zen?

            The one part i struggled to understand fully was the dhatsus and ayatanas. They didn't stick.



            Kokuu, what are your thoughts on starting another sutra study? Im sure there is a half dozen of us that would LOVE the opportunity to gently comb through another essential text with you.

            Thank you all! This has been wonderful. I feel closer to everyone after being with your responses over the months.

            Gassho,
            Onsho
            satlah

            Comment

            • Meitou
              Member
              • Feb 2017
              • 1655

              #7
              Hello everyone!
              As a (sort of!)former member of Treeleaf, although it's very much like Hotel California, I hope it's ok for me to pop in and say that I've been following this study from the beginning and it's been a wonderful and educational experience. I've loved reading your responses and can only wish to have some of the acuity that I've witnessed here. If I had I might have joined in!
              Kokuu you've done a brilliant job, the structure and questions were spot on.
              Thank you everyone.
              Gassho,
              Meitou
              Satlah

              命 Mei - life
              島 Tou - island

              Comment

              • Hokuu
                Member
                • Apr 2023
                • 130

                #8
                How have you found reading this sutra?
                It was nice, thank you for facilitating it! The only thing, which is likely just my thing, is that I often lost context from week to week. That is to say, when a week passed and we moved to the next section, I had already forgotten about the previous section, which might have influenced my understanding of the text. Probably having a framework of the general sutra structure and topics covered within might be helpful.
                Which parts particularly spoke to you and will likely remain with you?
                I think it's Hui-nen's first poem, where he says there has never been any dust in the first place. Though we still clean the mirror, I guess
                Were there any parts which seem confusing or somewhat jarring to our modern take on Zen?
                I don't think I encountered anything jarring my modern-ish take on Zen.

                Gassho
                Hokuu
                satlah
                歩空​ (Hokuu)
                歩 = Walk / 空 = Sky (or Emptiness)
                "Moving through life with the freedom of walking through open sky"

                Comment

                • Tairin
                  Member
                  • Feb 2016
                  • 3074

                  #9
                  Thank you Kokuu for leading this discussion. I thought the pace and consistency was perfect. Your questions helped me spend some time reflecting on what I had read. I look forward to the next study you lead.

                  I really appreciated Red Pine’s scholarly commentary. I noticed he has done similar treatments for the Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra. Maybe we can do those as a group sometime in the future.

                  Which parts particularly spoke to you and will likely remain with you?

                  This may sound silly but what I really appreciated was the consistency of the message of how to Practice. There isn’t much in the Sutra that we haven’t seen from more modern Zen teachers such as Jundo , Kodo Sawaki, Okumura, and so on. Zen Practice resonates with me. The simplicity of sitting and being with what is resonates with me. I’ll revisit the Platform Sutra again in the future.

                  Meitou It is good to see you.

                  Thanks to all for their discussions.


                  Tairin
                  sat today and lah
                  泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

                  Comment

                  • Hoseki
                    Member
                    • Jun 2015
                    • 733

                    #10
                    Hi folks,


                    -How have you found reading this sutra?

                    It was good. I've started the sutra a number of times but this was the first time I've finished it.

                    -Which parts particularly spoke to you and will likely remain with you?

                    I really like the contrasting Poems of Shen-hsiu and Hui-neng at the beginning. I've read them a number of times and I think they work best together. It's a sort of poetic call and response. Shen-hsui speaks of practice and Hui-neng speaks of realization. Each can be read by themselves, as contrasting poems and as a whole that contains the contradictions.

                    -Were there any parts which seem confusing or somewhat jarring to our modern take on Zen?

                    There were a few places where I felt we were leaning towards a mind only kind of framework but I can't remember any specific examples.

                    I hope we read another of the foundational sutras soon!

                    Thank you for leading this Kokuu.


                    Gassho,

                    Hoseki
                    sattoday/lah

                    Comment

                    • Chikyou
                      Member
                      • May 2022
                      • 800

                      #11
                      I really enjoyed this! It was my first time reading the Platform Sutra and I have the distinct feeling that my understanding of it will change as my practice and understanding grows. I look forward to revisiting it in the future!

                      I really have been looking forward to and appreciating these readings every week. I haven’t been participating in Jundo’s book club because two at once was just too much, but I think I’ll jump in there now. I grew to love having a little weekly “Dharma assignment”.

                      Gassho,
                      SatLah,
                      Chikyō
                      Chikyō 知鏡
                      (Wisdom Mirror)
                      They/Them

                      Comment

                      • Kokuu
                        Dharma Transmitted Priest
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 7280

                        #12
                        Dear all

                        Thank you for your feedback. That is really helpful.

                        Hokuu, your point about having an overall structure is a good idea. I can also find myself losing track of where we are at times, and the overall message of the sutra, so a reminder of that could be helpful.

                        If people are interested, I wonder if maybe we could look at The Lotus Sutra next year, similarly beginning in January? That way we give Jundo space to lead his book study, and for Ango to take place before starting another foundation text.

                        Thank you all again for your dedication and practice. I am glad that the format was generally seen as helpful and if people do not like the question approach, they are still free to read along and learn in their own way.

                        Gassho
                        Kokuu
                        -sattoday/lah-

                        Comment

                        • Hokuu
                          Member
                          • Apr 2023
                          • 130

                          #13
                          Lotus Sutra next year - YES!

                          Gassho
                          Hokuu
                          satlah
                          歩空​ (Hokuu)
                          歩 = Walk / 空 = Sky (or Emptiness)
                          "Moving through life with the freedom of walking through open sky"

                          Comment

                          • Onsho
                            Member
                            • Aug 2022
                            • 272

                            #14
                            I would LOVE to dig into the Lotus Sutra. I'll be there.

                            Gassho
                            Onsho
                            satlah

                            Comment

                            • Tairin
                              Member
                              • Feb 2016
                              • 3074

                              #15
                              Count me in for the Lotus Sutra


                              Tairin
                              sat today and lah
                              泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

                              Comment

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