The Platform Sutra: Sections 45-47, p240-250 (246-256 on Kindle)

[Kokuu]

Dear all

This week we move into the fourth, and final, part of the sutra, and look at sections 45 to 47.

In section 45, Huineng summons ten of his disciples and explains to them what they will need to teach to their own students, these being the three classifications which include the five skandhas, eighteen dhatus and twelve ayatanas. The five skandhas comprise form, sensation, formation, perception and consciousness and the eighteen dhatus are the six realms of sensation and their accompanying senses and sense consciousnesses. The ayatanas are a subset of the dhatus being the sex realms of sensation and six senses.

Huineng explains the importance of these in that when we live according to our buddha nature, and see things as they are, the eighteen dhatus are true and reliable. When we are deluded, the eighteen dhatus are falsehoods. He emphasises the importance of talking about opposites so that we do not get attached to any one thing. Halso alludes to the importance of the store consciousness (alaya-vijnana).

In section 46, Huineng further explains the pairs of opposites including five concerning external nature, twelve describing the attributes of dharmas and nineteen explaining functions of our own nature. He talks about the problems of using words but notes that getting rid of language is not the way to deal with this.

In section 47, Huineng emphasises the importance of this sutra, and declares that “to encounter the Platform Sutra is the same as being taught by me personally”. This seems similar to the Diamond Sutra which can be seen as the entire body of the Buddha.

Red Pine points out the paradox of Zen, and this sutra in particular, of emphasising the importance of texts such as this and the Diamond Sutra while also claiming to be a tradition in which transmission occurs outside of the scriptures, and Huineng himself acknowledges in the previous section that despite the problems of words being taken to give something a fixed identity, the answer to that is not to rid ourselves of words entirely, but to recognise this tendency within ourselves. Dogen also counters the tendency of some in Zen to push for an anti-intellectual approach in which words and sutras are ignored altogether in the Bukkyō fascicle of Shōbōgenzō:

Those who say that the Buddhist sutras are not the Buddha-Dharma do not research the occasions on which the Buddhist patriarchs have relied upon the sutras, they do not study in practice the occasions on which Buddhist patriarchs manifest themselves following the sutra, and they do not know how deep the intimacy is between Buddhist patriarchs and the Buddhist sutras.


Questions

1. What would you say are the three most important things for a Zen teacher to teach? Why do you think that Huineng concentrates on the five skandhas and eighteen dhatus?
2. What do you think about Huineng’s way of teaching in terms of opposites? Do you think this would be helpful to you to reflect on?

Wishing you all a beautiful week.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[FNJ]

1. (1) Depends on the teacher, (2) depends on the student, (3) depends on the relationship.

but also helpful:

A working knowledge of trauma, psychology, socioeconomics (could be the replacements for Huineng's "abhidharma") as well as the basic skills to feed, cloth and roof oneself from scratch.

2. Human minds work in terms of opposing pairs/dualities that originate from "it is" and "it is not". I think buddhist logic is helpful to expand from this: It is, it is not, it both is and is not and all is negated.

sat LAH
gassho
Niall

[Chikyou]

• What would you say are the three most important things for a Zen teacher to teach? Why do you think that Huineng concentrates on the five skandhas and eighteen dhatus?

I agree with what I think Niall is saying in that one size fits all all approaches don’t necessarily work in reality. If I were going to choose something to teach, generally, it would be these three: 1) Zazen 2) Precepts 3) Compassion. Everything else kinda flows out from there.

As for why Huineng concentrates on the senses, well, that’s what we all experience, so it makes sense to work from there.

• What do you think about Huineng’s way of teaching in terms of opposites? Do you think this would be helpful to you to reflect on?

I like contemplating opposites. In general, absolutes aren’t true. Holding two conflicting ideas at the same time is good exercise.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Hosui]

Once you know that 1. your mind creates all form, and know also that 2. all form is emptiness, then you can begin to know that 3. your mind is emptiness itself. The accountancy style of the Abhidharma at least points us towards knowing that it’s our pure minds that’s the root. Thanks big H for teaching me this!

Consequently, I like how he gives us these opposites to occupy our minds with, only to reveal how it’s the purity of this same mind, and the reality it reveals, that we should take refuge in. Kinda like, “Ta da! Behind your noses all along! Fooled ya!”

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[FNJ]

• What would you say are the three most important things for a Zen teacher to teach? Why do you think that Huineng concentrates on the five skandhas and eighteen dhatus?

I agree with what I think Niall is saying in that one size fits all all approaches don’t necessarily work in reality. If I were going to choose something to teach, generally, it would be these three: 1) Zazen 2) Precepts 3) Compassion. Everything else kinda flows out from there.


Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

I like yours way better!

Sat LAH
Gassho
Niall

[Hoseki]

1. What would you say are the three most important things for a Zen teacher to teach? Why do you think that Huineng concentrates on the five skandhas and eighteen dhatus?

I"m not sure what's the most important think for a Zen teacher to teach. I guess I'm leaning towards how to sit, how to make sense of the precepts and I'm not sure what to say for the third.

I think Huineng wants his students to think in terms of the five skandhas and eighteen dhatus because he wants them to the drop the ideas of the self. Dropping the self can depersonalize ones experiences as they are now described in mechanical (cause and effect) terms based on these models. This would be contrasted with ideas connected to a self (also an idea). e.g. I'm hungry vs there is hunger. When one makes reference to oneself we may be inadvertently strengthening the idea of an independent self that's somehow different than the experiences. While this is true it's also not true. So Huineng asks his students to trying think in a way that runs counter to idea of a independent self.



What do you think about Huineng’s way of teaching in terms of opposites? Do you think this would be helpful to you to reflect on?

I think the opposites are emphasized so Huineng's students don't get locked into relying too heavily on any specific concepts. So any idea that's put forth is followed by it's opposite as a kind of balancing act. It's like a ledger where the debits and credits balance out. I think Huineng is using the same kind of situation with respect to the skandhas and dhatus.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Jishin]

Greetings,

From the underside,

Jishin

[Jundo]

Kokku,

F U?

----

Gasho,

Jishin

Hi Jishin,

Good to hear from you, friend.

I think that maybe we cannot recommend specific treatment plans or books within Treeleaf. People should consult with their own mental health professionals face-to-face. So, if it is okay, maybe we won't post this. I hope you understand. We have several mental health professionals here who have written book, and we usually don't post them inside the Forum.

Gassho, Jundos
stlah

[Taigen]

1. Maybe I’m a traditionalist, but my top 3 are: Zazen, 4 Noble Truths/8-fold path, emptiness.

I think one of the hardest things to realize is that you do not have a body, you are a body. To me, this is one of the first steps to cultivating compassion and realizing emptiness/interbeing. To quote the Tao Te Ching,

“To take the body seriously
is to admit one can suffer.”

2. I think it is important to recognize things not just as opposites but as spectra, and I think consistently teaching in pairs is a means to do this. I think realizing spectra also leads to realizing process or impermanence (in that there is no static state of “dead” or “alive,” for instance, or “enlightened” or “afflicted”).

Gassho,
Taigen

[Onsho]

1. What would you say are the three most important things for a Zen teacher to teach? Why do you think that Huineng concentrates on the five skandhas and eighteen dhatus?

1-All about suffering. How it happens when what we decided would happen, does not happen. Second arrow ect.
2-We are one another and every thing.
3-Touching the stillness of our original nature

If he has had 3000-5000 students, he will need a curriculum and programming. These have probably been the best way to get through to the most about of people. This curriculum is tricky to wrap your head around. if you can understand it you will be able to really start seeing the emptiness of everything around you.

1. What do you think about Huineng’s way of teaching in terms of opposites? Do you think this would be helpful to you to reflect on?

Opposites are pretty necessary I feel. They make you see things as a whole. How they depend on each other. How they bring each other into existence.

Gassho
Onsho
satlah

[Hokuu]

What would you say are the three most important things for a Zen teacher to teach? Why do you think that Huineng concentrates on the five skandhas and eighteen dhatus?

If I had to pick, I'd say impermanence, suffering, and no-self. As for Huineng, I think he followed what was considered the "value proposition" of Buddhism in his time.

What do you think about Huineng’s way of teaching in terms of opposites? Do you think this would be helpful to you to reflect on?

It would be easier if Zen masters used simpler language. On the other hand, as Richard Feynman reportedly said, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics".

Gassho
Hokuu
satlah