The Platform Sutra: Sections 38-40, p212-219 (218-225 on Kindle)

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  • Kokuu
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 7161

    The Platform Sutra: Sections 38-40, p212-219 (218-225 on Kindle)

    Dear all

    We now move into part III of the sutra, which (together with part IV) considers Huineng’s life after his teachings in parts I and II.

    Section 38 tells us that he lived for forty years on Tsaohsi mountain and taught 3000-5000 people, both lay and monastic. It also says that this sutra formed the basis of his teaching and that the Platform Sutra became the instrument of transmission. The story of this sutra is how the robe and bowl were passed from Bodhidharma down through the six patriarchs to Huineng, and from here on, the object of transmission is the teaching itself.

    Red Pine notes here that he thinks it is likely that the Platform Sutra, or at least the first two parts and this section, were composed during the lifetime of the sixth patriarch.
    In section 39, it is explained that the terms northern and southern school originate because of where Huineng and Shen-hsiu were abbots. However, it is also said here that north and south more refer to the ability of people to learn Zen and there are not two kinds of dharma being taught. The dharma is referred to as indirect if someone is slow to learn, and direct is someone is fast to learn.

    Red Pine clarifies that although this section says that Shen-hsiu was abbot of Yuchuan Temple, there is no actual record of this, or even of him living there. He did, however, live for many years at a hermitage nearby, on Yuchuan mountain, which is where the confusion doubtless arose. Red Pine believes that the association of north and south with the two men came from their birthplaces rather than their teaching temples, with Huineng’s southern origins talked about early on in the sutra.

    Section 40 tells the story of Shen-hsiu sending one of his monks to Huineng’s temple in order to check out his teaching. The monk, Chih-ch’eng, experienced realisation on hearing Huineng speak and tells him where he came from. Huineng says that he must be a spy and Chih-ch’eng replies that he was but is not now. Huineng says that this is the same with affliction and enlightenment.

    Questions
    1. In section 39 it is said that there are not two kinds of dharma being taught. Yet, earlier in the sutra it seems that much is made of the difference between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s verse. What do you think? (and Red Pine himself has comments on this)
    2. How do you understand Huineng’s comment that Chih-ch’eng was a spy but is no longer being the same as affliction and enlightenment?

    Wishing you all a beautiful week.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
  • Chikyou
    Member
    • May 2022
    • 766

    #2
    1. In section 39 it is said that there are not two kinds of dharma being taught. Yet, earlier in the sutra it seems that much is made of the difference between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s verse. What do you think? (and Red Pine himself has comments on this)
    I don’t think it’s so much as two kinds of dharma, as it is different approaches/ways of understanding the dharma. Since the Dharma is everything and all things, there can’t be two of it.
    1. How do you understand Huineng’s comment that Chih-ch’eng was a spy but is no longer being the same as affliction and enlightenment?
    I see it as atonement. When he came to Huineng, he was there for his own reasons and motives. But once he heard Huineng speak, he saw the error of his prior ways.

    One thing from the commentary that sticks out in my mind is the mention of a different edition where it’s said that Chih-ch’eng “came to steal the Dharma”. How can one steal the Dharma? The Dharma belongs to everyone, and no one. It cannot be stolen.

    Gassho,
    SatLah,
    Chikyō
    Chikyō 知鏡
    (Wisdom Mirror)
    They/Them

    Comment

    • Hoseki
      Member
      • Jun 2015
      • 715

      #3
      1. In section 39 it is said that there are not two kinds of dharma being taught. Yet, earlier in the sutra it seems that much is made of the difference between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s verse. What do you think? (and Red Pine himself has comments on this)

      My thoughts go to the Lotus Sutra. In the Lotus Sutra even practitioners of different Buddhist traditions are unknowingly bodhisattvas. I think the idea is the teaching should be tailored to the individual (as much as possible) and their particularities. Like the father who lies to his children to get them out of the burning house. Each child was promised a different kind of animal pulling a cart. But once they are out of danger they realize that the carts they were promised lead them to experience the majesty the cart the father did have (I don't think it would work out quite like this with my own children.)

      The significance of the focus on the differences between Shen-shiu's poem and Huineng's could be attributed to sectarian posturing. Or Huineng may have simply believes his method is more expedient, or at least it's a teaching for
      people with a different set of characteristics than those who would follow Shen-shiu.




      2. How do you understand Huineng’s comment that Chih-ch’eng was a spy but is no longer being the same as affliction and enlightenment?


      I think it's the difference between being at peace with a particular discomfort and resisting it. The sensations remain the same in both situations but they are still very different experiences.​

      Gassho,

      Hoseki
      sattoday/lah

      Comment

      • Hosui
        Member
        • Sep 2024
        • 120

        #4
        Small self sees discriminations like north/south, slow/fast, indirect/direct and thinks it can storm or spy on heaven. Big Self sees only that which is beyond discrimination, no storming or spying needed. If there’s even the slightest gap between practice and realisation (or between affliction and enlightenment, or samsara and nirvana - they’re all the same), it might as well be as that between heaven and earth. Hui-neng helped Chih-ch’eng close the gap.

        Gassho
        Hosui
        sat/lah today

        Comment

        • FNJ
          Member
          • May 2025
          • 35

          #5
          Originally posted by Kokuu
          Dear all

          Questions
          1. In section 39 it is said that there are not two kinds of dharma being taught. Yet, earlier in the sutra it seems that much is made of the difference between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s verse. What do you think? (and Red Pine himself has comments on this)
          2. How do you understand Huineng’s comment that Chih-ch’eng was a spy but is no longer being the same as affliction and enlightenment?

          1. As someone coming from another Buddhist tradition, one that is very gradual in its approach and entering another tradition which seems to suggest that we are all already "enlightened" and that we just need to realize it. I can appreciate this.

          How is it that both of these approaches originated from the same Buddhadharma? Isn't it wonderful that if we try one and find it harmful, we can go somewhere else and try another?

          Not only that, but we can try different teachers within the same tradition.

          Are these different dharmas? Are they teaching what the Buddha taught? Do they just have different styles of teaching what the Buddha taught?

          It seems to me that most of the Buddhist centres I have encountered are teaching the right way to meditate (just sit there) but seem to mess up pretty badly when it comes to their various ideas of skillful means intended to help people with the rest of their lives. I feel like it often backfires.

          2. What's the worst a spy can do at a Buddhist centre? Listen to the teachings? Sit there? I mean, I suppose they could run around trying to talk about people behind their backs and try to make problems (but that's also nothing unusual for a Sangha). I suppose they could try to light temples on fire (but then you're not a spy, you're a vandal).

          Sat today
          Gassho
          Niall

          Comment

          • Taigen
            Member
            • Jan 2024
            • 143

            #6
            1. I think there’s a distinction between capital D Dharma and little d dharma. The “Dharma” is universal, but everyone’s individual “dharma” will be unique to them. We should be happy for those who come to realization quickly, how fortunate for them! We should also have compassion for those who arrive slowly, some of us have more conditioning to work through. And really, isn’t the actual answer somewhere in the middle? Even if you get it quickly, you still have to practice. And if you get it slowly, you still have to practice.

            2. He’s still the same person before and after. He made himself a spy by thinking he could steal what was being freely given. As Red Pine says, the afflicted mind is the enlightened mind, all that changes is the afflicted mind becomes aware of its true nature.

            Gassho,
            Taigen
            SatLah

            Comment

            • Tairin
              Member
              • Feb 2016
              • 3040

              #7
              In section 39 it is said that there are not two kinds of dharma being taught. Yet, earlier in the sutra it seems that much is made of the difference between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s verse. What do you think? (and Red Pine himself has comments on this)

              As the others above have pointed out it really is the distinction between the Dharma of which there is one and the individual approaches to teaching. Soto, Rinzai, Pure Land, Vipassana, Tibetan, maybe even Christian or Islam. They are all a form of teaching to a truth. Not all will resonate with the student.

              How do you understand Huineng’s comment that Chih-ch’eng was a spy but is no longer being the same as affliction and enlightenment?

              The others above nailed this too. How can you spy and steal what is given freely? Afflictions vs Enlightenment? The bright blue sky is there whether there are clouds or not.


              Tairin
              ​​​​​​​sat today and lah
              泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

              Comment

              • Hokuu
                Member
                • Apr 2023
                • 108

                #8
                In section 39 it is said that there are not two kinds of dharma being taught. Yet, earlier in the sutra it seems that much is made of the difference between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s verse. What do you think? (and Red Pine himself has comments on this)
                I think we're probably [edited from "likely"] seeing different layers of text editing: one editor, responding to their context, aimed to highlight difference, while another, responding to theirs, aimed to highlight unity.

                How do you understand Huineng’s comment that Chih-ch’eng was a spy but is no longer being the same as affliction and enlightenment?
                Huineng seems to be making an analogy, where being spy = affliction, and not being spy anymore = enlightenment. I believe he's trying to poetically convey the idea that just as Mr Chih remains the same person whether he's a spy or not, the mind with afflictions remains the same mind when it becomes enlightened. People never change, but the direction of their actions might.

                Gassho
                satlah
                Last edited by Hokuu; 05-16-2025, 01:43 PM.
                歩空​ (Hokuu)
                歩 = Walk / 空 = Sky (or Emptiness)
                "Moving through life with the freedom of walking through open sky"

                Comment

                • Onsho
                  Member
                  • Aug 2022
                  • 225

                  #9
                  In section 39 it is said that there are not two kinds of dharma being taught. Yet, earlier in the sutra it seems that much is made of the difference between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s verse. What do you think? (and Red Pine himself has comments on this)

                  This turns my head to the fifth ancestor. I would think be would be a better at teaching “directly”, which Huineng benefited from. Shenhsiu may have done better with an indirect teacher. When I started wrapping my mind around Dharma, I connected with “the cosmic law that governs the universe” approach. There are many dharmas. but one Dharma.
                  I have a 2021 red pine addition of The Platform Sutra and it uses the terms instantaneous and gradual instead of direct and indirect.


                  How do you understand Huineng’s comment that Chih-ch’eng was a spy but is no longer being the same as affliction and enlightenment?

                  Was blind but now I see” comes to mind.

                  Gassho,
                  Onsho
                  satlah

                  Comment

                  • Kokuu
                    Dharma Transmitted Priest
                    • Nov 2012
                    • 7161

                    #10
                    Great answers and better than I might have said in your position.

                    The answer to the first is probably a mix of all that you have said. We can look at the dharma as one seamless array of teachings, or else differentiate between them as direct and indirect, relative and absolute, compassion vs wisdom. Does that change the fact that it essentially remains the dharma with the intention to show us that awakening is our inherent birthright?

                    As we looked at early on in the sutra, The Identity of Relative and Absolute says that "in the way there are no northern and southern ancestors" and this is totally true. However, it is also the case that Tibetan Buddhism, Theravada and Zen do teach differently. As usual in Zen, it is a case of not one, not two - they are not the same but neither do they differ.

                    The analogy of spy and infliction is an interesting one and I love your answers on the fact that seeing the dharma as something to steal or spy on negates that it is freely offered and available to everyone. When we see ourselves as separate, we separate ourselves. When we realise we were never separate, we are spies no longer.

                    Gassho
                    Kokuu
                    -sattoday/lah-

                    Comment

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