The Platform Sutra: Sections 34 and 35, p192-205 (198-210 on Kindle)

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  • Kokuu
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 7124

    The Platform Sutra: Sections 34 and 35, p192-205 (198-210 on Kindle)

    Dear all

    This week we will be reading sections 34 and 35. In section 34 the Magistrate (whom we might remember from section 1 as Wei Ch’u of Shaochou who instructs Huineng’s disciple Fa-hai to make a record of the Sixth Patriarch’s lecture) requests to ask a question of Huineng. He goes on to ask about Bodhidharma’s legendary encounter with Emperor Wu in which the Emperor tells Bodhidharma about all of the temples he has built and offerings he has made in support of the dharma and asks how much merit is in that. Bodhidharma’s answer ‘No merit’ confuses the Magistrate and he wishes to understand better.

    Echoing his formless poem in section 33, in which he says that “Fools work for blessings and not the way”, Huineng explains to the Magistrate that giving alms and building temples are down for blessings rather than merit. Giving to gain blessings is not practice but done for the sake of self, the true merit rests in our own dharma nature.

    As is now familiar in this sutra, Huineng’s teaching also draws on The Diamond Sutra in which the wisdom contained in the prajnaparamita literature is seen as far greater than a near infinite number of offerings.

    In section 35, the Magistrate bows and asks another question, this time about whether chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha will lead to rebirth in his Pure Land as that tradition says.
    Huineng explains that the Pure Land is actually no different from our buddha nature itself and if we realise that, we are born there in an instant. However, if we remain deluded about our nature, no amount of chanting will take us there.

    Red Pine restates this clearly, “If our minds are impure, we live impure lives no matter where we find ourselves. And if our minds are pure, what need is there to be reborn somewhere else?”
    Samsara and nirvana are not two different places but rather the difference between an unrealised and realised mind.

    Huineng goes on to ask the Magistrate if he would like to visit the Western Paradise (Pure Land) here and now and the Magistrate of course says that he would.
    Huineng explains that our physical body is like a city, with the sense doors acting as the city’s gates. Our minds are the kingdom and our true nature is the king. He then goes on to make other comparisons and says that when our enlightened nature shines through our body and mind (the city), the three poisons disappear, the hell realms vanish and all is no different from the Pure Land itself.

    There is a story like this in The Hidden Lamp koan collection called The Old Woman and the Pure Land:
    An old lady of faith was walking along the road when she met a Zen master, who said to her, “On your way to the Pure Land, eh, Granny?”
    She nodded.
    “Holy Amitabha’s there, waiting for you, I expect.”
    She shook her head.
    “Not there? The Buddha’s not in his Pure Land? Where is he then?”
    She tapped twice over her heart and went on her way.



    Questions
    1. Given that the first paramita is the perfection of generosity, why is there no merit in giving alms and building temples? Is there a way of giving that does have merit (which is itself related to the paramita)? Do you have any sympathy for Emperor Wu?
    2. Do you think there is a place for chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha and other similar practices or is this, as Huineng says, a pointless exercise if we do not work to see our own nature?

    Wishing you all a beautiful week.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
  • WhiteLotus
    Member
    • Apr 2025
    • 48

    #2
    Greetings Kokuu!

    I am loving this series and your input is awesome!

    "Given that the first paramita is the perfection of generosity, why is there no merit in giving alms and building temples? Is there a way of giving that does have merit (which is itself related to the paramita)? Do you have any sympathy for Emperor Wu?"

    In my view I would question myself if my sense of generosity inspired me to wonder if there was merit or not. In my view when I give alms the reward is inherent in the giving. If nothing else, I vicariously benefit when I benefit others. What more would be needed? If there is merit, then great, give it to someone who needs it. Indeed I have sympathy for Wu. "Everybody plays the fool, sometimes!"

    "Do you think there is a place for chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha and other similar practices or is this, as Huineng says, a pointless exercise if we do not work to see our own nature?"

    Absolutely. All phenomena of course arise according to causes and conditions. There will be those whose suffering is released through chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha, just as there are those who are released upon seeing a blossom, or watching a dirt clod smash, or hearing a rock strike bamboo, and even through observing two people arguing. However, if there is no release it is indeed secondary. I wouldn't say it's a pointless exercise though. I believe recitation and chanting were early forms of what amounts to copy machines. Instead of writing it down, they had to repeat it often orally. So in a way the constant chanting serves to preserve and carry on that tradition, though it may itself be outdated.

    "Huineng explains that our physical body is like a city, with the sense doors acting as the city’s gates. Our minds are the kingdom and our true nature is the king."

    This part reminded me of Fu Dashi. As you may know there is a good chance that Huineng knew Fu Dashi who lived during the same period and both passing on in 713. Fu Dashi is as mentioned before, attributed with the Mind King Inscription (Xinwang Ming) from the Ox Head school. As mentioned there was a poem I translated entitled Mind King, which may have been somewhat inspiration for the later text by the Ox Head school. It is a bit long, I hope you don't mind me sharing, it covers many of the discussion points in this topic.

    Mind King

    Gazing across the four great seas, Observing the fivefold mountain of aggregates, This is the path where the Tathāgata walks, His numinous wisdom is deeply serene. The jeweled palace glows with radiant pearls, Lotus thrones shimmer with pristine jade. The Mind King illuminates the Dharma, Spreading the lotus of prajñā. The pure land is sown with bodhi seeds, How could it not be the Heaven of Heavens? Contemplating this very body, The Mind King is prajñā’s emptiness. The dwelling of sagely wisdom, A path not shared with common minds. Entering and leaving, there is no door, Seek its traces, yet none can be found. The great essence is vast and boundless, Yet the small mind holds not even a speck of dust. To reach the other shore, Unfurl the sail of wisdom high. With the pure, luminous pearl of discipline, Adorn the Buddha’s sacred seat. Let the body take the form of the Tathāgata, And the mind be crowned as the King of Prajñā. May one swiftly ascend the lotus throne, The mouth radiating perfect light, Shining upon boundless realms, Becoming a bridge for all beings. Unseal the great treasury of Vinaya, Let the fragrance of precepts and samādhi spread. Penetrate the wisdom of no-birth, And see—who comes and goes within emptiness? Forever transcend the prison of the three realms, Remain unstained by the wombs of the four māras. Play freely upon lotus blossoms, Rest peacefully upon the Dharma’s pure terrace

    Both gods and humans gaze in reverence, In the unseen, the void resounds with praise. For those with karmic affinity, the vast teaching unfolds, The wondrous gate of prajñā swings open. Night after night, embrace the Buddha in sleep, Morning after morning, rise together again. Walking, standing, always side by side, Sitting, reclining, ever dwelling together. Never apart, even by a hair’s breadth, Like a body and its shadow. If you wish to know where Buddha dwells, Listen—this very voice is He. Stillness is the root of the Dharma King, Movement is the sprout of the Dharma King. Nirvāṇa is never far, The eternal abiding is not remote. Turning the mind is the pure land, At that moment, afflictions dissolve. To cross the vast sea of suffering, Diligently build the bridge of the six perfections. Certainly, enlightenment will be realized, Just as the tides surely return. The hidden treasure is never apart from you, The luminous pearl lies within your very body. Simply seek it within your own mind, Do not search far away in the empty sky. All beings share the same true nature, In myriad forms, the essence remains one. For those who understand this Dharma, Why toil in vain searching for another? The four births share a single body, The six paths all return to the same source. Ignorance itself is Buddha, Afflictions need not be cast away.


    Again thank you for sharing Kokuu!

    Salem
    sala

    Comment

    • Chikyou
      Member
      • May 2022
      • 749

      #3
      Given that the first paramita is the perfection of generosity, why is there no merit in giving alms and building temples? Is there a way of giving that does have merit (which is itself related to the paramita)? Do you have any sympathy for Emperor Wu?

      I absolutely have sympathy for Emperor Wu. I’m reminded of the Prosperity Gospel and Televangelists of modern times: “give the church all of your money and you’re guaranteed to get into heaven!” A lot of people fall for it. I’m not saying that the temples of ancient China were as predatory as some of these organizations today (they may have been! I just really do not know) but it seems to me that people have been getting this wrong forever, much to the benefit of others.

      Doing good for the sake of getting a reward isn’t the point.

      Do you think there is a place for chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha and other similar practices or is this, as Huineng says, a pointless exercise if we do not work to see our own nature?

      I am not sure that something being pointless means we shouldn’t do it. It’s not strictly necessary, sure. However humans seem to have a psychological need for various rituals, and zen itself is full of them too. Bells, incense, chanting of the Heart Sutra - is ANY of this necessary to awaken to the Dharma? Well…no. But it seems to clear some of the brush from the path for many of us. And that has value.

      That said, if we’re not seeking our own nature through all of this, what exactly are we doing? Then there really is no point.

      Now, I have a question - in this section, Bodhidharma is referred to as the 28th Patriarch of Zen in India. Can someone with a better grasp of the history explain this more clearly for me? I had believed that Zen didn’t really exist as such until it was brought to China by Bodhidharma. Was what we call Zen today being practiced in India at the time? Or is that what we call Mahayana that was practiced in India?

      Gassho,
      SatLah,
      Chikyō
      Chikyō 知鏡
      (Wisdom Mirror)
      They/Them

      Comment

      • Taigen
        Member
        • Jan 2024
        • 129

        #4
        Originally posted by Kokuu
        Questions
        1. Given that the first paramita is the perfection of generosity, why is there no merit in giving alms and building temples? Is there a way of giving that does have merit (which is itself related to the paramita)? Do you have any sympathy for Emperor Wu?
        2. Do you think there is a place for chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha and other similar practices or is this, as Huineng says, a pointless exercise if we do not work to see our own nature?
        1. If you undertake an action with the intent to "earn" merit, there is no merit in it. For an action to be "worth" something, it must come from a spontaneous giving of the self. In the New Testament, Jesus commands his followers to love God and their neighbor, but one cannot be commanded to love. If one only shows kindness to another out of a sense of duty or obligation, one is not truly exhibiting kindness.

        Of course there is the psychological perspective that "fake it 'til you make it" really does work. Pretend to be kind long enough and eventually you will be. Regardless, even if you feed a thousand hungry people, if you then ask, "how much credit did I earn?" the answer is still none. Waking up is realizing there's no merit to be earned, just showing up in kindness and compassion. (Another way of putting it is that waking up is realizing that the reward for feeding a thousand hungry people is that a thousand people aren't hungry anymore).

        2. I think exercises like chanting the Amitabha Buddha are not so much pointless as misleading. Chanting should be coupled with right understanding, that concentrating on the figure of Amitabha serves to cultivate those qualities within you and bring the Pure Land to fruition in your own life and practice. I am suspicious of practices that promise next-world fulfillment at the hands of a greater power, they feel like salvific escapism and potentially even predatory.

        In Zen, I personally think the layers of ritual, chanting, etc., are a way to wrap a sense of mystery and gravitas around a central message that is ultimately fairly straightforward, maybe even unsatisfying. Isn't that the Mahayana (greater vehicle) story? Say there's a prize for following this way, but actually there's no prize, there's just getting to actually live? That's not to say the rituals have NO intrinsic value for people, obviously lots of people find them helpful and meaningful, I just don't personally think they're necessary.

        Sorry to run long, I had a lot of thoughts this week apparently!

        Gassho,
        Taigen
        SatLah

        Comment

        • Hosui
          Member
          • Sep 2024
          • 99

          #5
          Thanks everyone!

          For me, by practicing the six perfections - namely the practices of giving voice to the Dharma, of observing the precepts, of patience, devotion, meditation, and the practice of wise discernment - we show our deep seated intention to carry all beings across the river of samsara, free of charge, because it’s the right thing to do. I see this ferrying in pure zazen which is the supreme act of giving (especially since nirvana and samsara are one), a practice that just happens to accrue merit. Contrarywise, the attempt to accrue blessings seems conditional of a fee, transactional, and, as Red Pine says, externally oriented. I have compassion for Emperor Wu (I had a cat once named Wu), but he could benefit from deepening his practice of the six perfections, IMHO.

          Paraphrasing Salem’s point somewhat, never say never. But for me the practice of only chanting seems equally conditional, transactional, and externally oriented. For instance, I know that the Nichiren practice of chanting the daimoku, the great title Namu myoho renge kyo, “Homage to the Lotus Sutra,” has the particular power of conversion to the truth, one that speeds all sentient beings on the path to buddhahood, preventing any slandering of the Dharma. There’s probably more to this practice than I realise, but for me this seems a tad conditional and wide of the mark of seeing our own true nature.

          Gassho
          Hosui
          sat/lah today

          Comment

          • Onsho
            Member
            • Aug 2022
            • 213

            #6
            Given that the first paramita is the perfection of generosity, why is there no merit in giving alms and building temples? Is there a way of giving that does have merit (which is itself related to the paramita)? Do you have any sympathy for Emperor Wu?
            I have herd that there is a teaching in Judaism, if you do a good deed and then tell someone about it, its no longer a good deed. That teaching has always been very meaningful to me.
            Building temples and giving alms for gain makes you nothing more than a benevolent businessman. Metta to Wu.


            Do you think there is a place for chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha and other similar practices or is this, as Huineng says, a pointless exercise if we do not work to see our own nature?
            Right understanding.
            I think its import to know that these bodhisattvas are you. Are your nature. Are not separate. They cant come from a far to save you, they live in you and guide you.

            Gassho
            Onsho
            satlah

            Comment

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