The Platform Sutra: Sections 24-26 and commentary, p166-174 (172-180 on Kindle)

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  • Kokuu
    Dharma Transmitted Priest
    • Nov 2012
    • 7121

    The Platform Sutra: Sections 24-26 and commentary, p166-174 (172-180 on Kindle)

    Dear all

    This week we continuin with sections 24-26 of the sutra.

    After bestowing the formless precepts, Huineng says that he will continue by teaching on the Perfection of Wisdom (prajanaparamita), stating that its meaning is “the great wisdom that leads to the other shore.”

    He points out that we should not simply chant these teachings but have to practice them and, if we do, our dharma body becomes that of a buddha. He also warns against practicing what he calls “Empty-mind Zen” (this referred to in the Huihsin edition as ‘to sit quietly with an empty mind’).

    Red Pine notes that the Maha Prajnaparamita that Huineng is referring to probably means the four line gatha from The Diamond Sutra. In our own case, we can think of our chanting of The Heart Sutra.

    In section 25 Huineng goes on to say that “our nature contains the ten thousand dharmas” (i.e. all things) and that, further, they are our nature. He says that to practice is to hold the ten thousand things (what is appearing right now) without rejecting them and without being corrupted by them.

    Emphasising his point above, he states that “deluded people chant this with their mouths, the wise practice it with their minds.”

    In section 26, Huineng explains that prajna means wisdom and paramita means that which leads to the other shore. He again emphasises that it is not enough to chant this without practicing it.

    He says that Maha Prajnaparamita (maha means great) is the noblest and highest and it isn’t present, past or future but all of the buddhas of the past, present and future come from it.


    Questions

    1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasised by our dharma ancestors?

    While Great Master Yakusan Kodo is sitting, a monk asks him, "What are you thinking in the still-still state?" The master says, "Thinking the concrete state of not thinking." The monk says, "How can the state of not thinking be thought?" The master says, "It is non-thinking."

    2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future? This koan may (or may not!) help:

    The Old Woman’s Rice Cakes
    Te-shan was traveling to the south in search of the Dharma when he came across a woman on the roadside selling refreshments. He asked her, “Who are you?”
    She responded, “I am an old woman selling rice cakes.”
    He said, “I’ll take some rice cakes.”
    She said, “Venerable priest, why do you want them?”
    He said, “I’m hungry and need some refreshments
    She said, “Venerable priest, what are you carrying in your bag?”
    He said, “Haven’t you heard that I am ‘King of the Diamond Sutra?’ I have thoroughly penetrated all of its levels of meaning. Here I have my notes and commentaries on the scripture.”
    Hearing this, the old woman said, “I have one question, venerable priest. May I ask it?”
    He said, Go ahead and ask it.”
    She said, “I have heard it said that according to the Diamond Sutra, past mind is ungraspable, present mind is ungraspable, and future mind is ungraspable. So where is the mind that you wish to refresh with rice cakes?

    Where is it?


    Wishing you all a good week.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
  • Chikyou
    Member
    • May 2022
    • 749

    #2
    1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasised by our dharma ancestors?

    I’m struggling a bit with this one. When I think of “empty mind” I think of no thoughts at all. Nothing there. Whereas the non-thinking (or thinking non-thinking) practice is more like not stopping thoughts but just not engaging with them, letting them exist like furniture in the room.

    I have no idea if I’m right.

    2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future? This koan may (or may not!) help:

    Prajna transcends all of these - it is woven throughout all of them, but contained within none of them.

    Gassho,
    SatLah
    Chikyō
    ​​​​​​​
    Chikyō 知鏡
    (Wisdom Mirror)
    They/Them

    Comment

    • Taigen
      Member
      • Jan 2024
      • 129

      #3
      Originally posted by Kokuu
      Questions

      1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasised by our dharma ancestors?

      While Great Master Yakusan Kodo is sitting, a monk asks him, "What are you thinking in the still-still state?" The master says, "Thinking the concrete state of not thinking." The monk says, "How can the state of not thinking be thought?" The master says, "It is non-thinking."

      2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future? This koan may (or may not!) help:

      The Old Woman’s Rice Cakes
      Te-shan was traveling to the south in search of the Dharma when he came across a woman on the roadside selling refreshments. He asked her, “Who are you?”
      She responded, “I am an old woman selling rice cakes.”
      He said, “I’ll take some rice cakes.”
      She said, “Venerable priest, why do you want them?”
      He said, “I’m hungry and need some refreshments
      She said, “Venerable priest, what are you carrying in your bag?”
      He said, “Haven’t you heard that I am ‘King of the Diamond Sutra?’ I have thoroughly penetrated all of its levels of meaning. Here I have my notes and commentaries on the scripture.”
      Hearing this, the old woman said, “I have one question, venerable priest. May I ask it?”
      He said, Go ahead and ask it.”
      She said, “I have heard it said that according to the Diamond Sutra, past mind is ungraspable, present mind is ungraspable, and future mind is ungraspable. So where is the mind that you wish to refresh with rice cakes?

      Where is it?
      1. Empty-mind Zen sounds like trying not to think of anything, while non-thinking sounds like not trying to think of anything. I think.

      Incidentally, on the subject of confusing "emptiness" with "void", most helpful for my understanding was Chapter 11 of the Tao Te Ching:
      Thirty spokes
      meet in the hub.
      Where the wheel isn't
      is where it's useful

      Hollowed out,
      clay makes a pot.
      Where the pot's not
      is where it's useful.

      Cut doors and windows
      to make a room.
      Where the room isn't,
      there's room for you.

      So the profit in what is
      is in the use of what isn't."


      To me, emptiness in this case sounds like potential, and I have found it instructive to play with replacing the word "emptiness" in other texts with "potential" and seeing how the meaning shifts. This has been helpful for me so I thought I would share!

      2. Prajna is always, has always been, and will always be available. Every thing, every moment, an opportunity to wake up to non-separateness. It does not require an ancient teacher or a future fulfillment, it just is.

      Also while those two were arguing, I ate that man's rice cake.

      Gassho,
      Taigen
      SatLah

      Comment

      • WhiteLotus
        Member
        • Apr 2025
        • 48

        #4
        Originally posted by Kokuu
        1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasised by our dharma ancestors?
        I like how the 37th section of the Wanling Record of Huang Po addresses it:
        "So it is said that if you have the merest intention to indulge in conceptual thinking, behold, your very intention will place you in the clutch of demons. Similarly, a conscious lack of such intention, or even a consciousness that you do NOT have NO such intention, will be sufficient to deliver you into the demons' power. But they will not be demons from outside; they will be the self-creations of your own mind. The only reality is that ‘Bodhisattva' whose existence is totally un-manifested even in a spiritual sense—the Trackless One. If ever you should allow yourselves to believe in the more than purely transitory existence of phenomena, you will have fallen into a grave error known as the heretical belief in eternal life; but if, on the contrary, you take the intrinsic voidness of phenomena to imply mere emptiness, then you will have fallen into another error, the heresy of total extinction."

        Originally posted by Kokuu
        2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future?
        I enjoy how the Xinxin Ming covers this:
        "Emptiness here, emptiness there, but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes. Infinitely large and infinitely small; no difference, for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen. So, too, with being and non-being. Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this. One thing, all things, move among and intermingle without distinction. To live in this realization is to be without anxiety about non-perfection. To live in this faith is the road to non-duality, because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.

        Words! The Way is beyond language, for in it, there is no yesterday, no tomorrow, no today."


        Salem
        Sala!
        Last edited by WhiteLotus; 04-07-2025, 10:07 PM.

        Comment

        • Hosui
          Member
          • Sep 2024
          • 99

          #5
          Thanks everyone.

          IMHO, empty-mind zen is ‘scrolling zen’.

          For instance, I’ve been that zealot hearth god (temple helper) searching for fire (“here, fiery-fiery!”). I’ve also been that dumb, loveable, Nemo-like clown fish proudly proclaiming “nothing in m’noggin”! I’ve even been that clueless PhD student studying Heidegger’s ‘Being and Time’ while being being-time itself. I currently am that proud Treeleafer carefully buffing his posts, and doubtless I’ll be just as empty-minded in the future, drooling in a care home, forgetting the unity of practice-realisation emphasised by all the Dharma ancestors shuffling around my high-backed chair in that moment.

          Great wisdom doesn’t seem dependent on the sequential time of past, present and future. In the same way, my zen training is just one of a gazillion manifestations of a non-thinking mind that comes to pass each and every moment.

          Gassho
          Hosui
          sat/lah today
          Last edited by Hosui; 04-09-2025, 07:02 PM.

          Comment

          • Onsho
            Member
            • Aug 2022
            • 212

            #6
            1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasised by our dharma ancestors?
            Empty mind Zen means to get rid of thoughts. Prajna just to keep thoughts free of ignorance.


            2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future?
            “I have heard it said" is the first few words of the diamond sutra, this woman has clearly hurt a few wise men's feelings in her lifetime. She IS the diamond sutra.

            Prajna is formless wisdom that transcends the realms of mundane objects and metaphysical dharmas​. it can't be quantified by time.

            Comment

            • Hoseki
              Member
              • Jun 2015
              • 711

              #7
              Hi folks,

              1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasized by our dharma ancestors?

              I think the issue isn't so much about having a empty mind but trying to get an empty mind. There are gaps in our thoughts now and then and it's fine other times the thoughts are like cars on a train. You can see the gaps if you squint really hard and that's also OK! But by trying to achieve that stillness of mind is to reject the current state. It's a rejection of what is rather than an acceptance with equanimity.

              2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future? ( I just want to say that I'm still chewing over this question and this was the best response I could currently come up with.)

              I think prajna is the wisdom of the Buddha. When we act, speak, and or think like a buddha we are practicing the wisdom of the Buddha. This could be contrasted with the wisdom of the cooper. If want to make barrels I talk to the cooper but if I want to be a Buddha I would seek out a Bodhisattva who can teach me to act, speak and think like a Buddha. Prajna isn't a singular thing or idea, it's the actions, thoughts and speech of a buddha done with the intent to help others along the path. In some instances prajna might be giving a sandwich to a hungry person, or it might be giving a lecture to a number of students, or it might be an act that violates the precepts such as euthanizing a dying animal. prajna isn't any particular thing, it is every possible thing when it's used to help others on the way. Prajna comes from Buddhas and gives rise to Buddhas. There is no beginning or ending, no birth and no death. Each act of prajna inheres in the ten directions and the three times what could limit it?

              Gassho,

              Hoseki
              sattoday/lah

              Comment

              • Hokuu
                Member
                • Apr 2023
                • 102

                #8
                1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasised by our dharma ancestors?
                "Empty-mind Zen" sounds like a practice of actively (at least to some extent) emptying one's mind. As far as I'm aware, this practice is used in many spiritual traditions. "Non-thinking," though, means letting everything be, meeting things/people/events as they are. IMHO, this first approach is easier as it gives you the feeling of staying active and being in control.

                2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future?
                Well, no abstract idea is of the present, past, or future.
                image.png

                Gassho
                Hokuu
                satlah
                歩空​ (Hokuu)
                歩 = Walk / 空 = Sky (or Emptiness)
                "Moving through life with the freedom of walking through open sky"

                Comment

                • Taigen
                  Member
                  • Jan 2024
                  • 129

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hokuu
                  Well, no abstract idea is of the present, past, or future.
                  image.png
                  Poor Bob!

                  Comment

                  • Choujou
                    Member
                    • Apr 2024
                    • 416

                    #10
                    1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasised by our dharma ancestors?

                    While Great Master Yakusan Kodo is sitting, a monk asks him, "What are you thinking in the still-still state?" The master says, "Thinking the concrete state of not thinking." The monk says, "How can the state of not thinking be thought?" The master says, "It is non-thinking."

                    2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future? This koan may (or may not!) help:

                    1. I would say that this would be perhaps a practice of stopping thoughts and keeping the mind blank… which only dulls it. The difference with our practice is that we accept and allow the thoughts to be and flow, but not grasp them and get carried away. We allow all to just be as it is.

                    2. it is timeless… beyond time itself.

                    Gassho,
                    Choujou

                    sat/lah today

                    Comment

                    • Tairin
                      Member
                      • Feb 2016
                      • 3023

                      #11
                      1. What do you think is meant by ‘Empty-mind Zen’? How does this differ from the practice of non-thinking emphasised by our dharma ancestors?

                      Just a side note. I don’t feel at all like I am at risk of practicing “Empty-Mind Zen”. My mind feels anything but empty.

                      Kidding aside, I get the point. I know that some people come to meditation and Zen specifically hoping for some release or some reprieve from the endless “monkey mind”, the endless train of thoughts. Sitting Zazen doesn’t empty your thoughts. If anything, sitting there in silence staring at a wall can amplify those thoughts because there isn’t any distraction. Our Practice is to not cling to those thoughts as they arise, don’t chase them, and don’t chase them away. I believe the key to our Practice is to witness these thoughts and the pull they have on us. Just let them be for this time.


                      2. What does it mean that prajna is not of the present, past or future?

                      What is the past? What is the present? What is the future? None of them have a durable, definitive nature.

                      I recently had to do a work trip which for a variety of reasons I was very much not looking forward to. As the trip got closer I realized that what ever happened was just “a bunch of stuff”. Soon it would all be in the rear view mirror and probably forgotten. This realization let me release my perceptions and just let the day happen.


                      Tairin
                      sat today and lah
                      Last edited by Tairin; 04-13-2025, 02:53 PM.
                      泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

                      Comment

                      • Kokuu
                        Dharma Transmitted Priest
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 7121

                        #12
                        Thank you all for your engagement last week.

                        You all get the difference between empty mind Zen and what we practice. We do not aim to empty the mind of thoughts or get rid of any part of our experience, but rather let things exist as they are without pushing them away or clinging to them.

                        And, yes, past, present and future are just ideas in our head. Just like poor Bob! That doesn't mean they can't be useful, as it is helpful to know if your doctor's appointment (or your mother's birthday!) has already happened or is yet to come, but prajna exists outside of that. Likewise, where is mind to be found? We can so easily trap ourselves with concepts.

                        Gassho
                        Kokuu
                        -sattoday/lah-

                        Comment

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