The Platform Sutra: Section 11 and commentary, p118-124 (123-130 on Kindle)

[Kokuu]

Dear all

We are just reading one section this week, section 11, and the accompanying commentary to bring us to the end of part one of the sutra.

In this part of the story, Huineng reaches Tayu Ridge, pursued by several hundred people who want to take his robe. Only one monk, Hui-shun, a former army general, catches up with him and when Huineng offers him the robe, Hui-shun says that he doesn’t want the robe, just the dharma. Huineng then proceeds to teach him.

Red Pine talks about other editions of the sutra which have a lengthy section on Huineng settling in the village of Tsaohou near Shaokuan. The nearby Paolin monastery had previously been destroyed by fire and this was rebuilt, with Huineng invited to stay there until he was threatened by people continuing to chase him for the robe. He then went into hiding with a group of hunters, with accounts differing over whether this was for a few years or fifteen years.

Following his seclusion, Huineng eventually emerges and goes to Fahsing temple in which he intervenes in the discussion of whether a flag is moving or the wind is moving. The master at the temple, Yin-tsung then questions him, and realises that he is Huineng’s dharma heir and holder of his robe and bowl.

In response to a question Huineng proceeds to lecture on nonduality and speaks of the Buddha answering a question of whether someone committing the most unpardonable crimes in Buddhism still has buddha nature, saying that our buddha nature is beyond bad and good.

Questions:

1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

Wishing you all a good week.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

I'd like to start by saying that I've been doing some reading in the Tendai tradition so that's likely going to color my responses.


1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?


I think he's just saying when we are having preferences we are engaging in the world as a sentient being. We want this, we don't want that. So in a way we are moving round in nine of the ten realms. We could also say that each realm is like a lens which we see the world. I'm not keen on this simile but I think it helps clarify my idea. When we aren't expressing preferences we are either in the 10th realm or using the 10th lens, the realm/lens of the Buddha. We may describe being in the 10th realm as seeing the world thus (words are normally paired with the senses but not always) or we can say we are seeing things are they present themselves to us through us, or we are seeing things as being unspecified.

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

My first thought is the parable of the raft. Once we reach the other side we no longer need the raft but we did need it to get here. So I think Huineng is saying that the words are instrumental for arriving at the truth not a necessary part (upaya basically).

As for the special tranmission outside the scriptures I'm not sure what to make of it. It might be something as simple as a teacher is needed to verify that a student is ready to teach on their own. Or it might suggest something more mystical, or it might be an artifact of inter-sect conflict. Something along the lines of this group of Buddhists just picked up the sutras and started teaching without any connection to the Buddha.

Gassho,

Hoseki
Sattoday/lah

[Onsho]

1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

This statement brings me to a place beyond explanation that gives me a sense of being grounded, and joyful. Ill do my best to point in its direction by taking refuge in the Three Treasures though. I take refuge in the Buddha- the mind that realizes correct, complete awakening. I take refuge in Dharma- freedom from any difference between ourselves and Buddha. I take refuge in Sangha- being in harmony with all things. Now I hold these Three Treasures AS the same thing. Everything, right now, all at once, returned to our true nature and Buddha is sitting in my chair. Hope that makes sense in some way.


2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

My uninformed assumption: In the relative sense yes. In the absolute sense, paradox don’t exist. In the middle way, both at once, and that is the only way to get to where we need to go. This reminds me of doing over the phone tech support for an elderly family member while you are away from your computer. Trying SO hard to use your words to point them to the answer, but no amount of language can get them to see whats right under their nose. Language alone isn't enough.

Have a great week everyone!

Gassho
Onsho
satlah

[Hosui]

1. We all share that same face. So, to be picky, there's no you/me in what that original face means to you/me. And still our faces are different, as different expressions of that same face, provided I understand there's no intrinsic nature to those differences. The empty face of Hosui is as radiant as the Buddha mind behind it.
2. A sustained paradox runs on the old fuel of dualistic judgement. With sutra study I'm in the process of switching energy providers, with my new tariff looking a lot less extravagant. Still, I need to learn the new T&Cs, which is what the sutras help me with.

Gassho
Hosui
sat today/lah

[Taigen]

Questions:
1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

1. What original face? When were you "original"? You were always in process, even before your mother was born. The "original" you is as imaginary as the "you" that exists in your mind and everyone else's mind right now! This puts me in a mind state of feeling kinship with the rivers that ceaselessly meander and cut new channels and banks...there is as much an original "me" as there is an original "Minnesota River". And yet, we share the same origin, River and I.

2. You can tell people about the way but they won't believe you. There has to be something missing, something to find, seek, attain, quest for... You can read about the Way too, but you can only find it right here. Is there paradox? Yes, you won't find yourself looking in a book (but you might realize that while you're reading it?). Bodhidharma says 1 in a million might wake up themselves, the rest of us need a teacher.

Gassho,
Taigen
SatLah

[Hokuu]

1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

This statement seems to be inviting Hui-shun to realize true reality lies beyond duality.

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

Paraphrasing what Jundo said in podcast (I think) - Zen masters did burn books but they read and studied them first.

Gassho
Hokuu
satlah

[Choujou]

1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

Hui-neng is getting to the heart of it right away. He is describing what it is to embody Buddha mind, beyond dualities and distinctions, and once there, to fully realize the truth.

To me, this mind state I’m in has No-face Value

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

What is there before the words? (A favorite little question of mine) One must learn the words to forget them. I think dharma study is important, but also important that one doesn’t attach to the words themselves. Look to the moon, not the master’s finger pointing to the moon! But one must know what the “moon” is when the master is talking about it or pointing to it! The words only convey the meaning and in an abstract way. One must then take the abstract wisdom, and then actualize it- put it into action! So it’s more about taking what wisdom is shared, and actualizing it into/through practice. Otherwise, it’s all just lip service.

Gassho,
Choujou

sat/lah today

[Shigeru]

1. Huineng is encouraging us to drop our discriminating mind and let go of duality, to contemplate what remains when all such things have been set aside. When I contemplate this personally, I realize that a lot of suffering in my own life can be avoided if I only stop to remind myself of this truth more often. I do struggle a bit with concepts like these, however. I find myself getting caught in the "how do I put this into words" trap, but I realize that words are insufficient.

2. I believe the main problem is as Red Pine says in section 2 "reading leads to the intellectualization of a text". I think this can definitely stand in the way of realizing your own nature. Practice can become more about reading and trying to understand what you are reading, rather than about reading deepening your practice. If you never see your own nature, no reading in the world or in countless lifetimes will save you. I think this is the paradox. As often is the case, two sides of the mouth are speaking here, one is telling us that we are supposed to read and study sutras, while the other is telling us that they will only get us so far, and can even be a hindrance if we allow them.

Hope everyone will have a good weekend

Gassho
SatLah

[Chikyou]

1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

This question makes me think of the clear state of mind of zazen, which I can recall easily after having experienced it many times, but which I would not be able to explain in words if my life depended on it.

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

Two things can be true (and not true) and I see no reason for this to be a paradox. We study the scriptures in hope that they will point us in the right direction; someone else mentioned the finger pointing to the moon. The sutras are the finger, not the moon.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Tairin]

1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

The whole “what is your original face” thing used to perplex me but now I see it as an expression of what is before the discretionary mind kicks in. There is no “good” and no “bad”. There is just this. Good and bad are our discretionary minds assigning values and meaning.

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

Yes is suppose strictly speaking there is a paradox but I don’t see it as problematic. What is a problem is if we start assigning mystical or supernatural powers to those words. The Christian Bible is just a bunch of paper bound together with words written in ink on those pages. The words tell a story that is important to some people but there is nothing special about those pages that will compel a person to tell the truth if they lay their hand on it. They feel compelled to tell the truth because they assign some powers to those words.

I like reading and studying the Dharma here at Treeleaf but at the end of the day the real work of this practice is through living this Path.


Tairin
sat today and lah

[Kokuu]

Lovely engagement and replies again. Thank you for your consistent practice with this!

Yes, our original face is that unborn awareness before we start dividing and judging the wholeness of everything, that which is seeing through our eyes and acting with our hands. It is what the Heart Sutra points to - "Not born, not destroyed, not stained, not pure" - we are what we are seeking - "With no hindrance of mind... far beyond all delusion, Nirvana is already here".

And I agree with all of you that there is no paradox between reading sutras and practice. In Bendowa (A Talk on Pursuing the Truth) Dogen says:

[W]e open sutras to clarify the criteria that the Buddha taught of instantaneous and gradual practice, and those who practice according to the teaching are invariably caused to attain the state of real experience. This is completely different from inspiring to the virtue of attainment of bodhi by vainly exhausting the intellect.

So, he is pointing out that we read sutras to clarify practice and, as many of you said, act as the finger pointing at the moon, rather than doing it for just intellectual understanding.

Dogen also takes aim at the idea that we do not need to read sutras in the Bukkyo (The Buddhist Sutras) fascicle of Shobogenzo:

Good counselors [dharma teachers], in every case, are thoroughly versed in the sutras. 'They are thoroughly versed' means that they see the sutras as their national land, and see the sutras as the body-mind. They have seen the sutras as the means of establishing the teaching for others, they have seen the sutras as their sitting, lying down, and walking, they have seen the sutras as father and mother, and they have seen the sutras as children and grandchildren.

and

Nevertheless, for the last two hundred years or so in the great kingdom of Sung, certain unreliable stinking skin-bags have said 'We must not keep in mind even the sayings of ancestral masters. Still less should we ever read or rely upon the teaching of the sutras. We should onlymake our bodies and minds like withered trees and dead ash, or like broken wooden dippers and bottomless tubs.' People like this have vainly become a species of non-Buddhist or celestial demon. They seek to rely upon what cannot be relied upon and, as a result they have idly turned the dharma of the Buddhist patriarchs into a mad and perverse teaching. It is pitiful and regrettable.

So, tomorrow we will being looking at the second section of the sutra as Huineng starts expounding teachings to his audience.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Kaitan]

1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

Sounds like when words are dropped we comeback to the present moment, yes, it's an state of attention, noticing I'm here!

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

It's a paradox, but life itself is a paradox. The profound truth of the buddhas is the ineffable/absolute and reading/studying words is the relative, but we in Zen embrace both.

Gassho

stlah, Kaitan

[Myo-jin]

Questions:

1. In teaching the dharma to Hui-shun, Huineng says, “When you’re not thinking of anything good and not thinking of anything bad, at that very moment, what is your original face?” What does this statement mean to you? Does it put you into any particular mind state?

2. In response to the nun Wu-chin-tsang asking how Huineng could understand the Nirvana Sutra without being able to read he replies, “The profound truths of the buddhas don’t depend on words.” This clearly echoes the statement attributed to Bodhidharma is which he declares Zen to be “a special transmission outside of the scriptures.”
Is there a paradox between this statement and the fact we are engaging in sutra study?

1. He puts me in mind of the fact that Original mind is that mind-moment when awareness arises, and not in the perceived quality of that mind moment.

2. I see sutra study and the rest as something like polishing the mirror of the Gatha we heard previously. It's not the deepest realisation, but it prevents regression and points the way. 'Special transmission' is Original mind, or the recognition of each mind-moment as an eternal flux and reflux.

I don't think there's a paradox as such, even though we know that sutras and verses are not mind itself, they are suggestive and point towards the unknowable. So long as we don't mistake messenger for message it's probably ok.

Sattlah
Gassho
Myojin

Sattlah
Gassho
Myojin