The Platform Sutra: Sections 9 + 10 and commentary, p109-118 (115-123 on Kindle)

[Kokuu]

Dear all

This week we will be reading sections 9 and 10.

In this part of the sutra, Hung-jen passes the robe of transmission to Huineng, telling him that “since ancient times the lives of those to whom this teaching has been transmitted have hung by a thread.”

The fifth patriarch then accompanies his successor to the Nine Rivers Ferry and advises him to wait three years before beginning to share the teaching. He also says to be skillful when guiding those who are deluded as they are no different to enlightened people once they open their minds.

Questions:

1. In the transmission of the dharma to Huineng, Hung-jen reads and explains the Diamond Sutra, completing the journey from Huineng initially hearing the sutra and seeking out a teacher. Why is this sutra so important here?

2. Why do you think that Hung-jen advises Huineng not to teach too soon? Do you think this should be general advice to anyone who receives dharma transmission?


Wishing you all a good week.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Guest]

1. BTW this is totally inappropriate... Who's visiting their teachers late at night in their rooms? Weird!

Don't be delusional. How deeply do we know we have been transmitted to? What good is a robe, a bowl, a lineage chart, a kesa, a zagu, a teachers praise, if you don't know it for yourself.

It's so cruel fooling people like that for so long... its not funny in the slightest!

2. Just another test. When you are ready, you are ready. You can listen to good advice, but ultimately YOU have to decide. Some people still think there is a secret to protect... Yet it's as plain as the nose on your face...

3. Resist!

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_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Taigen]

Questions:

1. In the transmission of the dharma to Huineng, Hung-jen reads and explains the Diamond Sutra, completing the journey from Huineng initially hearing the sutra and seeking out a teacher. Why is this sutra so important here?

[FONT=Aptos][FONT=Verdana]2. Why do you think that Hung-jen advises Huineng not to teach too soon? Do you think this should be general advice to anyone who receives dharma transmission?

1. Narratively, the pivot from the heady Lankavatara Sutra to the more direct Diamond Sutra mirrors and reinforces the transmission of the dharma from Hung-jen to Huineng, who we've learned is a simple, illiterate person. A more direct approach is gaining traction, it would seem.

2. To quote from Red Pine (p. 115 in the book), "To try to teach before we're ready to teach or before others are ready to listen is to harm everyone involved." Realizing your nature and leading a community are two utterly different things. Knowing something and teaching it are miles apart.

Gassho,
Taigen
SatLah

[Shigeru]

1. The Diamond Sutra set Huineng on the quest of seeing his own nature and finding instruction. Now, having seen his nature, he is able to grasp its meaning completely. In addition, the Diamond Sutra pretty much puts into words what Huineing has realized, cementing his understanding and transmission. Narratively, this is a fitting end to the learning part of his journey, to end as one began, but as a completely different person.

2. I think this is good advice, as Taigen quotes and Red Pine also says in section 1 "Not all those who understand the truth are able to teach it", understanding doesn't automatically mean you will be a good dharma teacher. Allowing for some time to pass lets the understanding "set" in the person, but also (and perhaps more importantly) allows for them to reflect on in what way is best to teach it. Teaching is a heavy and great responsibility, especially when your words could mean the difference between liberation or continued delusion for those who listen.

Gassho
SatLah

[Chikyou]

1) I haven’t actually read the Diamond Sutra, so I can only really understand its importance contextually (as an aside, I want to read it now!) I’m noticing that the Diamond Sutra has been a common thread so far throughout this Sutra - beginning with Huineng’s hearing it being chanted by a customer in his store.

I get the deep sense that all of these sutras are living stories - we read them, and we think we understand them, but as we progress on our own journeys, we gain deeper and deeper insight into their meanings.

2) As others have already said here, I think it is good advice. Our understanding deepens with time and practice. Teaching is a distinct skill set. It is good to take time learning how to teach, before actually attempting to teach anything.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Onsho]

1. In the transmission of the dharma to Huineng, Hung-jen reads and explains the Diamond Sutra, completing the journey from Huineng initially hearing the sutra and seeking out a teacher. Why is this sutra so important here?

--- I find it really cute that read it together. The Buddha checking Sabhuti's "right understanding" directly parallels Hung-jen and Hui-neng. I think the diamond sutra was the most common teaching tool at the time and its important to not only have a good handle on the meaning of it all (which is easy to read but hard to understand) but also like… the 6^th ancestor should have at least ONE formal teaching before taking the robe.

2. Why do you think that Hung-jen advises Huineng not to teach too soon? Do you think this should be general advice to anyone who receives dharma transmission?

----He may have been transmitted the Dharma but that doesn’t mean he has mastered his conduct. The book stresses timing and a need for patience. Knowing when to act and how it can be damaging to to wield the information correctly. Funny non related to the sutra advise I have herd, but very much a prajna bomb regarding motorcycles, If you are moving up to 1000cc sport bike, buy it next year and buy it with cash. Prove your restraint and patience and earn the the power and responsibility to use such a machine. If you listen to the bike, it wont take long before you find 300+kmh.

To quote Uncle Ben: “With great power comes great responsibility.”

Gassho
Onsho
satlah

[Hosui]

1. A bit like the case of Chikyou, I last read the Diamond sutra many years ago (I'll also pick this back up soon). From memory, the simile of the diamond as wisdom cutting through layers of delusion to reveal the purity of our nature seems exactly what Hui-neng needed to hear to jolt him out of any milling-room doubts. He knew there was already an unborn, uncreated, and undying Buddha nature within him, but it took Hung-jen's explanation of the Diamond Sutra to the illiterate Hui-neng to bring him to realisation of that knowledge - to actually taste the tea, not just have a cuppa.
2. I remember, when I left Throssel Hole all those years ago, a senior monk telling me, "be careful how you go with the Truth under your hat". As TS Eliot said in 'Burnt Norton', "Human kind/Cannot bear very much reality", or as the line from the film The Big Short has it, "The truth is like poetry, and most people fu**ing hate poetry".

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Choujou]

1. In the transmission of the dharma to Huineng, Hung-jen reads and explains the Diamond Sutra, completing the journey from Huineng initially hearing the sutra and seeking out a teacher. Why is this sutra so important here?

2. Why do you think that Hung-jen advises Huineng not to teach too soon? Do you think this should be general advice to anyone who receives dharma transmission?

1. I think this has already been said quite well, but I believe it is because of Hui-neng’s understanding cutting through directly to truth. The Diamond Sutra has been Hui-neng’s teacher the entire time. He spends all his time in a milling room, so the only thing Hui-being has had as a teaching so far is the diamond Sutra, and Samu. Perhaps Hung-Jen understands that Hui-neng has cut through to the truth in his understanding of the diamond sutra. It also marks the start of another journey for Hui-neng… he heard it and was guided to set out to find Hung-Jen, and now he hears it again and sets out to find his own way to teach the dharma as the sixth patriarch.

2. I feel that one would need to find the right style, or what techniques of teaching would seem more effective than others. I think this would also be a time to be around other teachers to see how they teach the dharma to different types of people. This also allows for time to consider expedient means and how one would apply it in different situations. It’s definitely important to do this so yes, I feel it is something that should be at least considered before teaching others after dharma transmission.

Gassho,
Choujou

sat/lah today

[Tairin]

Thank you Kokuu and others. I don’t have anything to add beyond what others have written above.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Kokuu]

Great responses again. Thank you all!

Yes, the Diamond Sutra points to reality itself, and there is a clear throughline in Huineng's story of it being the sutra that he heard that set him out on the path, and then the one he reads together with Hung-jen on the night he receives transmission. As we have also been saying, it is a time when Zen was moving away from the Yogacara teachings of the Lankavatara Sutra (although not abandoning them altogether as there is still much wisdom there) and towards the Madhyamaka teachings of the Prajnaparamita literature such as the Diamond Sutra.

And, yes, you all seem clear that understanding and having a solid practice does not immediately correspond to being a good teacher. As I imagine you will all have recognised, explaining ideas that are beyond words is not an easy thing, and not all who are transmitted make good teachers, just as some scientists are really good communicators and others not. It takes time to find your own style and way of articulating the dharma and, as several of you have pointed out, jumping in half-baked risks harming people. Teaching should be done for the benefit of others, not for the sake of ego.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Kaitan]

1. In the transmission of the dharma to Huineng, Hung-jen reads and explains the Diamond Sutra, completing the journey from Huineng initially hearing the sutra and seeking out a teacher. Why is this sutra so important here?

The first time Huineng heard the Diamond Sutra the customer that recited it said that for Hung-jen memorizing this sutra helps to realize Buddha nature and one immediately becomes a Buddha, this might be the reason. Until this moment Huinengs has been only working in the milling room and this is a special occasion for both of them.

2. Why do you think that Hung-jen advises Huineng not to teach too soon? Do you think this should be general advice to anyone who receives dharma transmission?

These were difficult times in the region, Red Pine speculates a bit, so I'm left to speculate too Maybe Hung-jen wanted only one public Patriarch to be around and three years of seclusion matched with his predicted death.

I also support the opinions of the rest of you, there are far too many people out there preaching thinking they know something, so it's best to keep personal ambitions in check.



stlah, Kaitan