The Platform Sutra: Sections 7 + 8 and commentary, p98-109 (104-115 on Kindle)

[Kokuu]

Dear all

This week we will look at parts seven and eight and the related commentary. Here Hung-jen sees Shen-hsiu’s gatha and burns incense in front of it, telling the other monks to pay attention to it and recite it. He also dismisses the artist who was tasked to paint pictures from the Lankavatara Sutra in favour of leaving Shen-hsiu’s gatha.

Although Hung-jen praised Shen-hsiu’s gatha in public, during a meeting between the two he is able to tell the senior monk that his understanding has entered the gateway of awakening but not yet pass through. He offers Shen-hsiu the opportunity to reflect and write another verse.

Later, Huineng hears a monk reciting Shin-hsiu’s gatha and asks about it, requesting to be taken to the place where it is written. He then writes two of his own gathas and asks for them to be written alongside Shen-hsiu’s original verse.

Hung-jen sees the verse and understands that Huineng has seen his true nature but does not want to disclose that to the monks so publicly is dismissive of it.

Questions:

1. What do you think is the symbolism of Shen-hsiu’s poem remaining on the wall, while the court artist is dismissed before he can paint scenes from the Lankavatara Sutra?
2. How do you see the relationship between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s? What is it that Shen-hsiu has missed?

Wishing you all a good week.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Chikyou]

The thing that immediately springs to mind is that Huineng is apparently pretty full of himself, isn’t he?

I wish we had gotten to read Shen-hsiu’s poem; unless I missed it, it’s never said what the poem actually is. Which I suppose is a koan all on its own.

1) I’m not sure what the symbolism is - maybe the 5th Patriarch thought that everyone could learn more from the gatha than they would from the paintings. Or maybe he preferred the simplicity of the gatha to murals.

2) This is hard to answer without knowing what Shen-Hsiu has written. Perhaps there are context clues that I didn’t pick up on. I look forward to reading others’ responses.

Gassho,
SatLah
Chikyō

[Kokuu]

I wish we had gotten to read Shen-hsiu’s poem; unless I missed it, it’s never said what the poem actually is.

Shen-hsiu's poem was on page 95:

The body is a bodhi tree
the mind is like a shining mirror
always try to keep it clean
don't let it gather dust.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Chikyou]

Shen-hsiu's poem was on page 95:

The body is a bodhi tree
the mind is like a shining mirror
always try to keep it clean
don't let it gather dust.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Oh! I missed that or forgot about it somehow.

To oversimplify, it seems that Shen-hsiu missed the emptiness and Huineng got it.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Meishin]

I wish we had gotten to read Shen-hsiu’s poem; unless I missed it, it’s never said what the poem actually is. Which I suppose is a koan all on its own.

"The body is the bodhi tree.
The heart-mind is like a mirror.
Moment by moment wipe and polish it,
Not allowing dust to collect."

Huineng's poem:

"Bodhi originally has no tree.
The clear and bright mirror also has no support.
Buddha-nature is constantly purifying and clearing.
Where could there be dust?"

1. Hung-jen recognized that for most of those monks a simple meme is more powerful than a static visual representation. I'm not sure I see a deep symbol, more like skillful teaching --reading the room, etc. So the poem is better than most, and won't lead others astray. This struck me as a difference between Zen Buddhism and Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. Room for both but a qualitative difference / non-difference.

2. The first poem invites us to be shackled to spiritual meritocracy. We must work, work work and then maybe we will reach our goal. We are judged by the quality of our spiritual housekeeping.

Huineng's poem, by contrast, dissolves those limitations pointing out that there's no such thing as "dust." Responding to that realization, we sit in composure. (One adds, now get up from the cushion and get rid of the dust.)

Gassho
Meishin
stlah

[Hosui]

1. I like the point Meishin made about skilful teaching, skilful means, or skill in means (I looked it up: upayakausalya in Pali). The Buddha was famous for fashioning different versions of his teachings to fit the predilections of his audience. This helps me understand the apparent contradiction between the Fifth Patriarch sticking with the 'proceed-to-the-gate' gatha of Shen-hsiu, rather than the 'ready-for-boarding' gatha of Hui-neng. The former gatha was what his recalcitrant monks - who were temporarily incapable of understanding and benefiting from the latter gatha - were capable of understanding at the time. At least they stood a chance of reaching the gate with that one. The Lankavatara graffiti could've scarred them off altogether.
2. The difference between the two gathas is as that between "the while snow falling upon the silver plate" and/or "the snowy heron hiding in the bright moon" of the Most Excellent Mirror - Samadhi. Each gatha resembles the other, but they're not the same. Shen-hsui's gatha has missed how we're already at our destination (to continue with the aviation metaphor) and we don't need to be at the airport in the first place, which was Hui-neng's point. To reveal our true natures, teachers sometimes have to call black, white.

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Taigen]

Questions:

1. What do you think is the symbolism of Shen-hsiu’s poem remaining on the wall, while the court artist is dismissed before he can paint scenes from the Lankavatara Sutra?
2. How do you see the relationship between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s? What is it that Shen-hsiu has missed?

1. Maybe Hung-jen saw a gatha that is essentially an image held in the mind (the tree and the mirror) and realized his monks did not need a whole wall full of images to distract them, when they are apparently already being misled by imagery? That's my interpretation at any rate.
2. They're both ok, Huineng's is better but I don't think he's really "gotten it" either. To borrow from another metaphor, I think Shen-hsiu is at the "mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers" stage of practice. I might say he's in a more relative perspective, one that still operates from discrimination, good, and bad: "dust on the mirror."
Huineng seems to be more at the "mountains were not mountains, rivers were not rivers" stage of realization, a more "absolute" or "empty" perspective. What body? What mirror? What dust? What self? But its not there yet.
The 3rd poem is better, but even here I'd say we're not there yet. Mind and body are separate, he's still leaning on the mirror metaphor for the self... I think he can still do "better."

Gassho,
Taigen
SatLah

[Choujou]

Questions:

1. What do you think is the symbolism of Shen-hsiu’s poem remaining on the wall, while the court artist is dismissed before he can paint scenes from the Lankavatara Sutra?
2. How do you see the relationship between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s? What is it that Shen-hsiu has missed?

1. For me, Hung-Jen keeping this gatha on the wall was saying the gatha was equivalent in expression of delusion. Even Hung-Jen says that it should be recited by the deluded. He grants that it has some merit, but not quite a complete understanding.

2. Shen-hsiu seems to have missed the emptiness and interbeing of all things. In truth there is no mirror to gather dust or be supported. No dust, no clean or dirty…

Gassho,
Choujou

sat/lah today

[Guest]

1. The one lesson anyone learns in a Zen monastery is that we have to rely on ourselves if we expect to find out anything about ourselves. Nobody can live for us or die for us. And nobody can realize enlightenment for us. We have to drink the water if we want to know what it tastes like. But just because Hung-jen can lead people to water doesn’t mean he can make them drink. Perhaps he thinks that a painting of water will do the trick?

2. People who are in need purification need purification. Those that do not, do not. Who can say who is who?

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Hokuu]

What do you think is the symbolism of Shen-hsiu’s poem remaining on the wall, while the court artist is dismissed before he can paint scenes from the Lankavatara Sutra?

So first Hung-Jen asks to prepare a gatha, and I'd assume it was expected to write in on a paper (or whatever they were using), not the wall prepared or at least dedicated to be painted later by a pretty known artist who was to receive some (significant?) sum of money. Then, Shen-hsiu writes his poem on the wall.
My guess is Hung-Jen realized Shen-hsiu was to be the next abbot and taking into consideration Shen-hsiu was likely from a wealthy and educated family, Hung-Jen just could not erase his poem even it if meant monetary loses.

How do you see the relationship between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s? What is it that Shen-hsiu has missed?

I kind of wonder together with the sutra commentator, whether this poem as we have it written in the sutra, isn't just setting a stage for the one of Huineng.

Gassho
Hokuu
satlah

[Kokuu]

Dear all

Thank you for those great answers. There are probably several reasons that Hung-jen leaves Shen-hsiu's poem up and, as several of you have mentioned, it points to replying on our own realisation rather than the realisations that come from texts (important thought thost can be) and images. I also think that it is symbolic of a shift in Zen from using the Lankavatara Sutra (which is based on Yogacara philosophy) as its foundational teaching, to the Prajnaparamita literature, which is then exemplified by Huineng's poems.

And, again, great answers on the differences between the poems. Certainly both have their uses, Shen-hsiu's being more path-based and skillful means whereas Huineng's is more direct pointing to emptiness. As Taigen says, he is doing this using negative imagery but that is pretty much the same method as The Heart Sutra. The Heart Sutra is familiar through its repetition of no... no... no... (eyes, ears, tongue... old age... death... path... suffering... end of suffering etc) and Huineng is instead negating the reality of Shen-hsiu's poem - no bodhi tree, no mirror or mirror stand. He uses that cutting through of reality in the same way as Nagarjuna and The Heart Sutra.

As many of you have said, Shen-hsiu's poem is valuable for many people here they are at. Not everyone is ready for the cutting through of reality.

So, onwards to sections 9 and 10...

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Shigeru]

Apologies for my late reply, I hope it is okay to share my thoughts as well, although belated!

1) What do you think is the symbolism of Shen-hsiu’s poem remaining on the wall, while the court artist is dismissed before he can paint scenes from the Lankavatara Sutra?

Up to the point when Shen-Hsiu submits his gatha, no other monks are mentioned to have followed Hung-Jens instruction to submit a gatha of their own. Perhaps Hung-Jen realized that the understanding of the Lankavatara sutra would be lost on the assembly, and it would be better for Shen-Hsiu’s poem to remain, to ensure the monks would at least grasp that? I wonder if this could be the case, especially in the light of Red Pine’s description of Hung-Jen as “he understands that for some of us, treading water is about all we can expect.” Shen-Hsiu and his understanding seemed to be as good as it got for the assembly, hence why the patriarch held it highly publicly (i.e the example for the rest of the class), but privately (i.e that between senior student and teacher) held that it did not reach the level of one who would inherit his robe

2) How do you see the relationship between Shen-hsiu’s poem and Huineng’s? What is it that Shen-hsiu has missed?

Shen-Hsiu sets up the stage that there is a way to walk and things to do to realize our nature, but ends up becoming stuck on the “doing”, emphasizing a division between polished/unpolished and a desire to get rid of the dust of sensation. Huineng realizes that such division is vain, and transcends this dualistic thinking, instead correctly seeing our nature as something inherent, not something gained from a purification or external support.

Gassho
SatLah

[Onsho]

“Buddhas see the emptiness of their nature, and deluded beings see the
walls of their delusions.” Is such a raw line.

1) I think it symbolizes our relationship to our own certainty. We see the pattern on the wall of the paintings lined up, we know the artist is coming, but we actually don’t know whats going to happen, we just think we do. The poem being placed on the side with the paintings shows that interruption and breaking tradition. That defilement. The callousness of his guess being equal to the visuals of the Lankavatara Sutra and how delicate tradition can be (and about to be). I think it was left there to see how long it takes someone to notice the metaphorical the spelling errors.

2) Shin-hsiu’s gatha shows separation and delusion. He hasn't grasped that the mind and the body are not separate nor does he see is nature as being complete.


Im having a hard time with this description, would someone be willing to re phrase it or simplify it?

Will never realize it. After this phrase, the Tsungpao edition
adds this: “For perfect enlightenment, you must recognize your
own mind in an instant and see your own nature as neither born
nor destroyed and see it at all times and with every thought and
as not attached to anything and as real whether it is one or many
and as real under all conditions. The mind that is real is truly real.
If you see it like this, this is your original nature of perfect
enlightenment.”

[Kokuu]

Im having a hard time with this description, would someone be willing to re phrase it or simplify it?

Will never realize it. After this phrase, the Tsungpao edition
adds this: “For perfect enlightenment, you must recognize your
own mind in an instant and see your own nature as neither born
nor destroyed and see it at all times and with every thought and
as not attached to anything and as real whether it is one or many
and as real under all conditions. The mind that is real is truly real.
If you see it like this, this is your original nature of perfect
enlightenment.”

I will give it a go but Jundo might do better!

Essentially there is something unborn, undying and unconditioned that exists and carries on existing beyond our passing thoughts, sensations and changes in our physical body.

When we drop away our attachment to, or belief in, the skandhas as self, this original nature reveals itself.

It is not me, but not 'not me' either. It is the universe expressing itself as me.

I feel it most often on the cushion but it can be noticeable at other times of the day too. When body and mind drops away it is a feeling of the universe flowering as me but without me needing to do anything to make it happen other than allow things to be as they are.

That all sounds incredibly Zenny but is what a number of Zen phrases point to. Dogen expresses it well in Genjokoan, which I note you also quote above:

To carry the self forward and illuminate myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and illuminate the self is awakening.

Mostly we try to illuminate the world with our self and our projections of what it looks like.
Allowing the universe to express itself through us is our awakened self.

All things are not other than that.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Onsho]

It is not me, but not 'not me' either. It is the universe expressing itself as me.

YES!
There it is.

Thank you Kokuu.

Gassho,
Onsho
satlah