The Platform Sutra: Section 2 + commentary (p73-83, Kindle p79-89)

[Kokuu]

Dear all

Just to note that I will shortly be closing the thread on the introduction and only the present week and previous week's thread will remain open at any one time.

So, this week we continue with section two of the sutra. In this section there are several allusions to the prajnaparamita literature, with Huineng (Jp. Daikan Enō) both asking his audience to 'purify their minds by reciting the teaching of Mahaprajnaparamita’ and reflecting on his encounter with a customer in a shop reciting the Diamond Sutra.

It also contains some autobiographical detail which you may be familiar with, setting out his impoverished background and work selling firewood. It also talks of how he got to hear of the fifth patriarch, Hung-jen/Hongren (Jp. Daiman Konin).

The summary of the prajnaparamita teaching that Red Pine refers to at the end of the Heart or Diamond Sutra presumably refers to either the prajnaparamita mantra at the end of the Heart Sutra (Gate! Gate! Paragate! Parasamgate! Bodhi! Svaha! - Already Gone, Gone! Already Gone Beyond! Already Fully Beyond!) or the four lines from the final part of the Diamond Sutra:

“As a lamp, a cataract, a star in space, an illusion, a dewdrop, a bubble, a dream, a cloud, a flash of lightning, view all created things like this.”

Red Pine goes into more detail in his commentary about Huineng’s background and also talks about some differences between translations including a probable later paragraph being added with Huineng obtaining financial security for his mother before leaving to seek the dharma with Hung-jen.

Questions for reflection:

1. Of what importance to the sutra, and its association with prajnaparamita literature, if any, is Huineng’s poor background, his job selling firewood and his illiteracy?
2. Did you have a moment such as Huineng hearing the Diamond Sutra being recited, that brought you to the dharma? Did you follow it immediately or did it take a few encounters?

Wishing you all a good week.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Kokuu]

Hi Housai

The Kindle passage is from p79-89. I downloaded that version and will make sure to include the Kindle pages for the weeks to come.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Henny]

Kindle page 79 - 89

[Taigen]

Questions for reflection:

1. Of what importance to the sutra, and its association with prajnaparamita literature, if any, is Huineng’s poor background, his job selling firewood and his illiteracy?
2. Did you have a moment such as Huineng hearing the Diamond Sutra being recited, that brought you to the dharma? Did you follow it immediately or did it take a few encounters?

1. Emphasizing Huineng's poor background, illiteracy, "blue-collar" job, and even his family's potentially disgraced origins seem to highlight the accessibility of the prajnaparamita teachings. Here are teachings the understanding of which is not limited to those who have a lifetime to devote to study, plying deeper mysteries from a place of comfort and luxury. Here are teachings that can be understood in a moment, by even those who cannot read; they are accessible to all who have ears to hear and a mind that is open (perhaps, are even MORE accessible to those whose "teacup" is not already full). I've read that Zen can be seen as a rich person's practice - what working class person has time to sit around and stare at the wall all day? I've heard this explanation for why more "salvific" traditions such as Pure Land are more popular, and I read that same attitude in this introduction. If a poor, illiterate woodgatherer can hear one line of the Diamond Sutra and wake up, why can't you?

2. Oh, this is an interesting question. If by "follow the dharma," one means, "consider oneself Buddhist," then it took many encounters, and many long years of discernment and discovery to arrive at that place. I first encountered Buddhist teachings at about age 12 or 13; a friend's father (who everyone said was a "Zen priest" though I think it more likely in hindsight that he had simply spent time in a monastic setting and people were confused by his robes that he wore periodically) taught me and some other friends how to meditate. I will say that if this constitutes my first contact with the dharma, then I began to follow it immediately, as I remember engaging in meditation practice (sitting and counting breaths) frequently if not regularly throughout my teen years, even teaching other friends and students I was mentoring to do so. Coming to consider myself a Buddhist would take the crucible of experience that was seminary, clinical pastoral education, and the total deconstruction of my Christian upbringing as a young man, not to mention a timely encounter with a Shambhala Buddhist chaplain.

I will say though that if "following the dharma" means something more like, "engaging in intentional spiritual practice, introspection, and attempting to live in a compassionate and wholesome way," then I don't know that I've ever not been following the dharma. My spiritual practice has always been deeply important to me, and I remember, even as a young child, seeking opportunities for deeper understanding and earnestly desiring to grow and learn as a person.

So, perhaps that is the follow up question to Kokuu's reflection: what does it really mean to follow the dharma?

Gassho,
Taigen
SatLah

[Hosui]

Firstly, it’s so easy to slip into dualistic thinking when it comes to pronouncing on who’s deserving and who isn’t when encountering the Dharma in a sutra like this. Even given Hui-neng’s authentic seeming background, if it were an educated billionaire merchant encountering the prajnaparamita literature, could we, hand-on-heart, subordinate their encounter below that of a illiterate firewood merchant, especially when we know coming across the Buddha’s teachings is so rare and precious in the first place? Carting around all that mind-luggage prejudice about worthiness, IMHO, isn’t helpful, even if we want to side with the underdog.

Secondly, and, to be honest, I don’t remember the moment of my pivot to the Dharma, even though there must’ve been one or several instances, all those years ago. Moments of lucidity beyond words are certainly memories I cherish, but even these acts of clinging (which is what repeated acts of fond recollection amount to), this search for an historic justifying provenance, I tend to put through a hot wash of meditating on the 5 skandhas/6 sense bases, believing this a good method for banishing stubborn mind-born stains of when I foolishly believe myself to be a separate being from the rest of the universe. I am not Buddha, and there is nothing in me that is not of Buddha, as I was taught to say - whoever this ‘I’ is.

Gassho
Hosui
sat/lah today

[Anthony]

Of what importance to the sutra, and its association with prajnaparamita literature, if any, is Huineng’s poor background, his job selling firewood and his illiteracy?

Huineng is illiterate at the beginning of the sutra. The prajnaparamita literature stresses going beyond conceptual notions. As Red Pine says in the commentary, it is much easier to form conceptual notions from the written word rather than by simply hearing. Huineng was poor and illiterate, so he heard the Diamond Sutra and understood its meaning without conceptualizing it.

Another aspect is that, if Huineng, a poor and illiterate firewood seller can become enlightened, then surely everyone has Buddha-nature and can also become enlightened. You do not need to be a monk engaging in sutra study 24/7 to realize your inner self.

Did you have a moment such as Huineng hearing the Diamond Sutra being recited, that brought you to the dharma? Did you follow it immediately or did it take a few encounters?

Actually I did have such an experience. I was having a deep (and fun!) discussion with an old friend over pizza in my hometown while visiting for the holidays. At the time, I was a pretty hardcore atheist and materialist. We ended up talking about different conceptions of the afterlife and I mentioned that one form of the afterlife I could never understand or get behind is the Buddhist and Hindu idea of rebirth. It just didn't make sense to me. How could someone come back from the nothingness of death?

My friend, who is also an atheist but was a bit more spiritual countered. I'm paraphrasing here since I don't remember the exact words: "Well, there was nothingness before you were born, and somehow you were born anyway." For whatever reason, this hit me like a sack of bricks. When I went home, I couldn't stop thinking about that statement. I became a bit obsessed with it and eventually purchased the book "What the Buddha Taught" by Walpola Rahula, a Theravadin. This taught the very basic tenets of Buddhism and I found myself nodding along as I read. Nearly everything in the book made sense to me. From there, I kept investigating the dharma and decided to practice Zen as it was the most accessible to me.

I still am not sure I believe in literal rebirth. But I definitely am still thinking about what my friend said to me.

Gassho,
Anthony, satlah

[Myo-jin]

Questions for reflection:[LIST=1][*]Of what importance to the sutra, and its association with prajnaparamita literature, if any, is Huineng’s poor background, his job selling firewood and his illiteracy?[*]Did you have a moment such as Huineng hearing the Diamond Sutra being recited, that brought you to the dharma? Did you follow it immediately or did it take a few encounters?

Thanks Kokuu,

I'm reminded of a time in my life, back in the 90's as a teenager, no money, nothing much really but second hand books that I would read and re-read, it's possible to get a lot of mileage out of a passage or phrase. I can imagine the customer chanting the Diamond Sutra as the sole piece of spiritual literature he might have had access to, and Huineng on hearing it becoming equally absorbed in it. These days we have so many apparent choices that we become like butterflies, sipping shallowly from many flowers, but if you have very little in that regard, even a few words can become a treasure trove. On top of that, in a time when access to spiritual traditions wasn't easy (not many Buddhist temples in rural Suffolk), such material forms a spiritual life-line for people who might otherwise never encounter the dharma or any other tradition.

I can't say I had such a moment, the opposite quite probably. I would say that I started off spiritually top-heavy, first with the Catholicism of my upbringing, then with Paganism, the occult, Thelema, as well as explorations into Taoism and Buddhism along the way. What I notice is a gradual winnowing away of non-essentials, until what was left was essentially Zen Buddhism, if not in form then (to my mind) in essence. The thing that remains is in my signature, over time I came to realise that my religion was 'not deceiving myself', and doctrines and traditions aside, to me that phrase encapsulates both a method and an ongoing challenge to my ego.

Gassho

Sattlah
Myojin

[Hosai]

1. Of what importance to the sutra, and its association with prajnaparamita literature, if any, is Huineng’s poor background, his job selling firewood and his illiteracy?

Not much to add... Everyone loves an underdog...

2. Did you have a moment such as Huineng hearing the Diamond Sutra being recited, that brought you to the dharma? Did you follow it immediately or did it take a few encounters?

道可道，非常道；名可名，非常名

_/\_
sat/ah
hōsai

[Meishin]

1. My son successfully dashed the plans that his mother and I had for his education. He could not abide the restrictions of a classroom. So he dropped out from high school. He couch-surfed, worked at dead-end jobs, worked at very dangerous jobs! Fell into bad habits and made poor choices in friends. But that path ironically led him to be the person he has become: a good husband and father, a successful business owner, and a leader in his community. What he learned on the streets while others were in university was the difference between good-enough and quite wonderful. I don't think he could have managed to pull that off in the conventional way.

So it goes with Huineng. Kinda sorta. The rice-hulling guy is taking it all in. All the time.

2. Yes I've had that moment. And there have been many times of starting over, starting from the beginning. Has taken a few encounters. Hope to get it right one of these days. (I know, it's already perfect.)

Gassho
Meishin
stlah

[Taigen]

Firstly, it’s so easy to slip into dualistic thinking when it comes to pronouncing on who’s deserving and who isn’t when encountering the Dharma in a sutra like this. Even given Hui-neng’s authentic seeming background, if it were an educated billionaire merchant encountering the prajnaparamita literature, could we, hand-on-heart, subordinate their encounter below that of a illiterate firewood merchant, especially when we know coming across the Buddha’s teachings is so rare and precious in the first place? Carting around all that mind-luggage prejudice about worthiness, IMHO, isn’t helpful, even if we want to side with the underdog.

I appreciate this very much, and I think you are absolutely right in saying that we shouldn't elevate or subordinate anyone's experience based on their background.

Your comment got me thinking though about the Buddha's own story, and makes me wonder how we might treat his story differently, or if Buddhism would have been as successful in general, if Buddha hadn't left his riches behind. How might we (not just Treeleaf or Buddhists, but people in general) have received things differently if the central figure had had his insight within the walls of a palace? If Buddhism had begun under the auspices of a crown prince, living a life of luxury? Does it make the story more powerful knowing he gave that up, and experienced some of the "real" world of suffering and hardship, as well as joy and peace? Would it have caught on if he hadn't? Would we hold similar expectations for our hypothetical billionaire after their insight, and is it fair to do so?

No answers, just questions to ponder.
Gassho,
Taigen
SatLah

[Hosui]

...Does it make the story more powerful knowing he gave that up, and experienced some of the "real" world of suffering and hardship, as well as joy and peace? Would it have caught on if he hadn't? Would we hold similar expectations for our hypothetical billionaire after their insight, and is it fair to do so?

I really like these pondering, Taigen, especially the oven glove quotes around the word real. Just when we think we have nailed the definition and archetype of what is real - call it a conventional truth - along comes another real, and another, until we reach for that which is beyond convention. And even then, recourse to an ultimate truth of the emptiness of form, say (or my son and daughter's love for me, their father), or the holding up of a flower, relies on elements of the conventional for expression. I'm keen to have Hui-neng pronounce on this some more.

Gassho
Hosui
Sat/lah today

[Hokuu]

Of what importance to the sutra, and its association with prajnaparamita literature, if any, is Huineng’s poor background, his job selling firewood and his illiteracy?

To properly answer this question, one has to be a scholar, I think.
It feels the authors/editors were trying to make a point - look, here is this simple guy, hard working, illiterate, one from the South although with Northern roots, he got enlightened, you can too. It’s just my modern assumption though.
Maybe the fact that he was a woodseller implied some connection to divine (as written in the commentary), then the contemporary perception would be probably different - some semi-shamanic figure of dual origin (North and South), etc., thus strengthening his position as a patriarch.

Did you have a moment such as Huineng hearing the Diamond Sutra being recited, that brought you to the dharma? Did you follow it immediately or did it take a few encounters?

I don’t think so. There was depression, then the “Fight Club” (I know, it’s hardly a Buddhist book but it definitely made me think), then there was Kerouac, Kodo Sawaki, more depression, Korean Zen masters, more looking around, and more again and here I am

Gassho
Hokuu
satlah

[Kaitan]

1. Of what importance to the sutra, and its association with prajnaparamita literature, if any, is Huineng’s poor background, his job selling firewood and his illiteracy?

In the commentary it is mentioned that back in those days in China firewood sellers were mediators between the mundane and sacred world. So it ties very well the teachings of the absolute/relative from the prajnaparamita. I also searched that it is a beautiful metaphor in Chinese cosmology the wood (material) that turns into fire (light).

1. Did you have a moment such as Huineng hearing the Diamond Sutra being recited, that brought you to the dharma? Did you follow it immediately or did it take a few encounters?

I heard from Alan Watts about Zen in a way that I never noticed before, some people here are not big fans of him, but I own him a lot to be studying and practicing Buddhism. And indeed, hearing it touches one more than reading. However, there were probably more encounters before that; I do remember perfectly well when I was like 10 years old, my dad was driving on a highway and I was sitting next to him, it was almost sun set, and he was telling something about the Tao philosophy, I don't remember the content, but it was very moving.



I liked at the end the Red Pine's comparison of Western fate and Karma, I used to think they meant the same thing, as if one was bonded to their past, but it makes more sense that one is shaping their path moment by moment.

This section also made me do some research about the prajnaparamita sutras and learned interesting facts like that the Lankavatara sutra was the par excellence scripture before the Diamond sutra.



stlah, Kaitan