The Platform Sutra: Title + Section 1 + commentary (p3 and p65-73)

[Kokuu]

Dear all

This week we get started on the sutra itself, and Red Pine’s commentary on the title and first section. So, please read through section 1 on page 3, and the accompanying commentary on pages 65-73 or wherever it is located in the PDF if you are using that.

In this first part of the sutra the stage is set with the Sixth Patriarch, Huineng, giving a teaching on the perfection of wisdom (prajnaparamita) and transmitting the formless precepts. His disciple, Fa-hai, is instructed to record what is said so that it can be read by future generations.

The Platform Sutra is one of the few Buddhist sutras which is not said to be taught by the Buddha himself (whether that is literally true or not). However, it claims through its title to be part of the prajnaparamita literature which includes The Heart Sutra and The Diamond Sutra.

Questions for reflection, and feel free to post your thoughts if you wish:

1. The Identity of Relative and Absolute (sandokai) begins with the words The mind of the Great Sage of India Is intimately conveyed west and east. While human faculties are both wise or dull In the Way there are no northern or southern ancestors.
What does the second sentence mean in terms of this sutra which is said to be The Direct Teaching of the Southern School and why is it important to emphasise in the sandokai?

2. What do you think is meant by the formless precepts? (don’t worry if you don’t know now as we will go into this in more detail later in the sutra, and I will confess to not being totally clear myself!).

You are also more than welcome to post any other reflections you have on this part of the sutra.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Henny]

I don't have much knowledge about (zen-)buddhism, but I checked some (I thought) reliable sources and tried to answer the questions:
Question 1:
Although people can be divided into those with a dull mind and those with a sharp mind, it isn’t possible to divide the true Buddha Way into a northern and southern way. This Way is not dependent on or limited by anything. Otherwise it wouldn’t be the Buddha’s Way.
Question 2:
The formless precepts mentioned in The Platform Sutra are almost the same as the usual precepts. The only difference is (why they are called ‘formless’), is that it isn’t about taking refuge in an outer reality, but one has to take refuge in themselves. The three bodies of the Buddha are within oneself. This is unique to the The Platform Sutra.

Gassho
Henny
sat/lah

[Anthony]

Questions for reflection, and feel free to post your thoughts if you wish:

Some general thoughts: I find it very interesting that in the sutra, it is claimed that high-ranking government officials were present. This seems to indicate that Huineng was (possibly posthumously) quite famous and that having attended a lecture of his would impart some legitimacy. This is also interesting in light of Red Pine's commentary that the Northern School was preferred by China's elites, while the Southern School (Huineng's school) was preferred in a place where many were exiled to and which had not yet fully been sinicized. To me, this would seem to indicate that the teachings of the Southern School were popular among the kind of folks who the elites would not fully approve of.

1. The Identity of Relative and Absolute (sandokai) begins with the words The mind of the Great Sage of India Is intimately conveyed west and east. While human faculties are both wise or dull In the Way there are no northern or southern ancestors.
What does the second sentence mean in terms of this sutra which is said to be The Direct Teaching of the Southern School and why is it important to emphasise in the sandokai?

I don't remember where exactly, but I think at one point in the Shobogenzo, Dogen laments the division of Buddhism into different schools, saying that there is actually only one Buddhism. I don't have an academic background, but I believe the main doctrinal difference between the Northern and Southern schools of Zen where that the Northern School emphasized "gradualism" (a gradual path to enlightenment) while the Southern School emphasized "subitism" (or sudden enlightenment, enlightenment happening all at once). That said, it would seem from Red Pine's commentary that the actual main difference between the two schools was more political than doctrinal. Similar to what Dogen said about there only being one Buddhism, I believe the Sandokai is entreating us to put aside any trivial political differences and realize that there is in fact only one way, even if it may be expressed in different forms.

2. What do you think is meant by the formless precepts? (don’t worry if you don’t know now as we will go into this in more detail later in the sutra, and I will confess to not being totally clear myself!).

I don't really know! I kind of think that the formless precepts may be a reference to dharma transmission from mind to mind, but it seems a bit strange to be doing that in a room full of thousands of people which doesn't really evoke the same intimate nature that dharma transmission is associated with.

EDIT: To add to this, Huineng being in a large room with a large audience transmitting the formless precepts kind of reminds me of the mass empowerment ceremonies you see in Tibetan Buddhism sometimes. Red Pine even mentions that "empowerment" may be a potential translation for the term he rendered as "authority". Originally all these ceremonies were meant to be somewhat intimate between master and student, but as demand grew, the ceremonies adapted. Maybe this is some adaptation by Huineng given the growth of Zen school.

Gassho, Anthony
satlah

[Kaitan]

1. The Identity of Relative and Absolute (sandokai) begins with the words The mind of the Great Sage of India Is intimately conveyed west and east. While human faculties are both wise or dull In the Way there are no northern or southern ancestors.
What does the second sentence mean in terms of this sutra which is said to be The Direct Teaching of the Southern School and why is it important to emphasise in the sandokai?

It seems that according the sandokai there are no direct nor indirect teachings. I thought Soto Zen was more about gradual enlightenment with the farmer Zen metaphor, but I've also heard that is both gradual and sudden.

2. What do you think is meant by the formless precepts? (don’t worry if you don’t know now as we will go into this in more detail later in the sutra, and I will confess to not being totally clear myself!).

Maybe formless comes from Hui-Neng's interpretation of the precepts, that they are not restrictions of behavior; so having form is to have a restriction.


A comment about the number of attendants: it seems like ten thousand monks are too much, I'm more inclined to think there were one thousand, like the other versions claim.



stlah, Kaitan

[Hosai]

Proverbs 23:7

your real motivations are clear to you... you cannot fool yourself... making offerings, building stupas, brown nosing...
no merit...

this is the light of truth, the dharma body, your true self.

even in doubt there is no doubt

what has this got to do with north or south?

it is sudden, but it goes on forever.

_/\_
sat/ah
matt

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

1. The Identity of Relative and Absolute (sandokai) begins with the words The mind of the Great Sage of India Is intimately conveyed west and east. While human faculties are both wise or dull In the Way there are no northern or southern ancestors.
What does the second sentence mean in terms of this sutra which is said to be The Direct Teaching of the Southern School and why is it important to emphasize in the sandokai?

I've just started reading the Lotus Sutra so this is where my head. But I think of this in terms of upaya. In chapter two the Buddha talks about how he taught different things to different people across time. Each teaching tailored to the particular group of people. So think Huineng is doing something like this. So the southern school is a particular style or teaching that is more like a path to a place rather than the place itself. I think the path is also the place but one has to start with the path to get to the place to know that the path and the place are both the same and different. Sort of like climbing to the top of the mountain. Once your up there you can see how the path was as much the mountain as the top.

With respect to the sandokai, I think Shitou Xiqian is showing us the view from the top of the mountain. From the top you can see multiple paths but when your on the path you only see what's in front of you. So the Sandokai is how a Buddha sees rather than someone else.


2. What do you think is meant by the formless precepts? (don’t worry if you don’t know now as we will go into this in more detail later in the sutra, and I will confess to not being totally clear myself!).

I think the formless precepts is what it's like to have internalized the precepts but not as rules to follow but as impulses. So we react automatically in a way that's consistent with the precepts. It's been discussed many time, here, about taking a life. Most of us understand that sometimes and in some situations we have to take a life to preserve life. I don't just mean eating (though that's significant) I mean someone having to kill someone whose about to kill others. That's a literal violation of the precepts but it's also sort of in line with the precepts as a whole.

At least that's what I think right now.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Taigen]

1. The Identity of Relative and Absolute (sandokai) begins with the words The mind of the Great Sage of India Is intimately conveyed west and east. While human faculties are both wise or dull In the Way there are no northern or southern ancestors.
What does the second sentence mean in terms of this sutra which is said to be The Direct Teaching of the Southern School and why is it important to emphasise in the sandokai?

2. What do you think is meant by the formless precepts? (don’t worry if you don’t know now as we will go into this in more detail later in the sutra, and I will confess to not being totally clear myself!).

1. This question / division between North and South reminds me of this joke:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over. (Emo Phillips)

2. To quote from the Tao Te Ching:
"Everybody on earth knowing
that beauty is beautiful
makes ugliness.

Everybody knowing
that goodness is good
makes wickedness." (Ch. 2)

or

"So: when we lose the Way we find [virtue];
losing [virtue] we find goodness;
losing goodness we find righteousness;
losing righteousness we're left with obedience." (Ch. 19)

My sense is the "formless precepts" are the underlying spirit from which the "formed precepts" emerge. The spontaneous movement of compassion and kindness that is exhibited when non-separateness is realized. The "formed" precepts are a vision of what this looks like, but they are not the thing itself.

Gassho,
Benjamin
SatLah

[Furyu]

1. The Identity of Relative and Absolute (sandokai) begins with the words The mind of the Great Sage of India Is intimately conveyed west and east. While human faculties are both wise or dull In the Way there are no northern or southern ancestors.
What does the second sentence mean in terms of this sutra which is said to be The Direct Teaching of the Southern School and why is it important to emphasise in the sandokai?

I'm actually not that interested in the Nothern/Southern debates. I think Taigen hits the nail on the head with his joke in the previous post.
Realization is realization and the roads are many. I suppose that the sandokai's first line is to remind all zen practitioners that they all ultimately wear the same robe of enlightenment.
Do politics and rivalries have Buddha nature ? 無 !

2. What do you think is meant by the formless precepts? (don’t worry if you don’t know now as we will go into this in more detail later in the sutra, and I will confess to not being totally clear myself!).

When eyes first open there are precepts to be followed.
When the mind is an empty sky, there is no trace of precepts.
When the clear sky sees through the eyes, there are precepts everywhere.


Ramine
Sat and Lah

[Chikyou]

A light bulb went on for me when I read about the social division between northern and southern ancestors. I hadn’t understood that before, and I thought it was just about geography. Now I see that it’s also about social divisions and prejudice. “You and the guy you don’t like so much are the same. The difference between you is an illusion.”

The formless precepts: emptiness, a guidepost. Something that can’t be put into words.

Gassho,
SatLah,
Chikyō

[Choujou]

1. The Identity of Relative and Absolute (sandokai) begins with the words The mind of the Great Sage of India Is intimately conveyed west and east. While human faculties are both wise or dull In the Way there are no northern or southern ancestors.
What does the second sentence mean in terms of this sutra which is said to be The Direct Teaching of the Southern School and why is it important to emphasise in the sandokai?

2. What do you think is meant by the formless precepts? (don’t worry if you don’t know now as we will go into this in more detail later in the sutra, and I will confess to not being totally clear myself!).


1. While I am a novice and am not as familiar with texts as others may be, I would venture to say that this is merely saying that all can be either wise or dull in the way, or the truth, no matter where they come from, who they follow, this or that… make no distinctions. No north, no south, while yet Hui-neng is called the “southern ancestor” due to the divide in followers due to internal politics at that time.

2. Again, just my two cents, but I would say that when one considers the Mahaprajnaparamita description and how Hui-neng would try to apply that to the precepts, I would say that it was a knowing the precepts in regard to their true and natural expression, without the “fiction” of words or concepts, or to be seemingly separate from the precepts themselves! We are the precepts and the precepts are us… and all is emptiness.

“It asks us to realize that the existence or non-existence of any object or dharma is a projection of the mind, that any entity can only be said to exist or not exist in relation to other entities, and that true understanding sees through the imaginary barriers we use to separate, and thus define, beings, things, ideas, and, of course, ourselves. The Prajnaparamita shows us the true nature of things. It shows us their emptiness. In short, the Prajnaparamita teaches us that what is real is the absence of the fiction of self-existence. The absence of fiction is the truth, the truth of emptiness, but an emptiness that binds us together with all things and all beings, with all entities of the mind.” (P.71-72)

When the lines disappear, when one realizes the “fiction” of the “self” and/or “other”, when great compassion arises, then we act through formless precepts as they flow through our natural state, which is a Buddha.

Gassho
Jay

sat/lah today

[Kokuu]

Dear all

Thank you for some fantastic replies! I will pick some of them up in response.

1. In terms of the northern and southern ancestors I think that you all see what this is pointing to in terms of arbitrary separation into schools, geographical locations and other identities. The Platform Sutra seems to have been written in order to put one school (the southern school of sudden awakening) above another (the northern school of gradual awakening) and claim the status as patriarch for Huineng over Shen-hsiu. However, as Jundo has often said, and we will see this later with respect to the poetry contest, Zen comprises both sudden and gradual approaches. We can see our original face in an instant, and in Dogen's teachings there is no separation between practice and enlightenment, yet we can also see that we develop depth in our practice over time through gradual appreciation of practice and the teachings.

In the Sandokai, Shitou is pointing to the fact that, as most of you have pointed out, buddha nature and our potential to awaken is not limited to any one school or location. I think that Benjamin makes an important point in how these kind of distinctions tend to play out in life, and this feels similar to the schism between the northern and southern schools who it seems agreed on a whole lot but may have had a couple of different interpretations. History also seems to suggest that Shen-hsiu was widely venerated despite being from the northern school so even at the time it was not that one school was held up over the other.


2. Again, some great responses here and just picking up a few from Henny:

The formless precepts mentioned in The Platform Sutra are almost the same as the usual precepts. The only difference is (why they are called ‘formless’), is that it isn’t about taking refuge in an outer reality, but one has to take refuge in themselves. The three bodies of the Buddha are within oneself. This is unique to the The Platform Sutra.

Ramine:

When eyes first open there are precepts to be followed.
When the mind is an empty sky, there is no trace of precepts.
When the clear sky sees through the eyes, there are precepts everywhere.

Chikyou:

The formless precepts: emptiness, a guidepost. Something that can’t be put into words.

and Jay:

Again, just my two cents, but I would say that when one considers the Mahaprajnaparamita description and how Hui-neng would try to apply that to the precepts, I would say that it was a knowing the precepts in regard to their true and natural expression, without the “fiction” of words or concepts, or to be seemingly separate from the precepts themselves! We are the precepts and the precepts are us… and all is emptiness.

Although to note that quoting these doesn't mean that the other responses were not as good or worth quoting!

It seems to me that the formless precepts are just as the above are saying. In terms of prajnaparamita, there is nothing to be stolen, no false words and no being to be saved or killed. However, in the relative world there are all of those things. Even then, though, we are not separate from the precepts and they are practiced in our moment-to-moment responses rather than pre-determined actions. What is right in this moment may not be the same in the next moment or situation. The Formless Precepts go beyond ideas of what is right and wrong and instead emerge spontaneously based on our non-separation from all things.

In the Shobogenzo fascicle Shoaku Makusa ('Not Doing Wrongs' or, in the inimitable translation of Uncle Brad 'Don't Be A Jerk'), Dogen says:

"We hear of this supreme state of bodhi sometimes following good counselors [Buddhist teachers] and sometimes following sutras. At the beginning, the sound of it is , 'Do not commit wrongs'... What sounds like this is speech which is the supreme state of bodhi in words. It is bodhi-speech already, and so it speaks bodhi. When it becomes the preaching of the supreme state of bodhi, and when we are changed by hearing it, we hope not to commit wrongs, we continue enacting not to commit wrongs, and wrongs go on not being committed; in this situation the power of practice is instantly realised."

It can also be interesting to read both Bodhidharma's and Dogen's commentaries on the precepts, given here at Everyday Zen. It is about halfway down this page, under THE 10 GRAVE PRECEPTS.

For example, for the first precept on not killing, Bodhidharma's commentary is as follows:

“Self-nature is subtle and mysterious. In the realm of the everlasting Dharma, not giving rise to concepts of killing is called the Precept of Not Killing.”

As some of you have pointed to, the precepts can be taken several ways. At face value (form) they are good guidance for life, both reducing our own suffering and the suffering as others. However, at a deeper (formless) level, they point to the interconnection of all things and vast web of causation that is playing out from moment to moment in everything we do. Coming from a place of awareness that is not centered on a self allows actions to arise as and when they are needed in contrast to actions coming from our egoic mind.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Tairin]

Playing catchup.

In response to #1 I’ll just add that there are many paths up the mountain. No right path although some maybe be better suited to one path more than another.

#2 as others have alluded to I saw Form/Formless Precepts in terms of Relative and Absolute. The Precepts we study during Jukai are all expressions which we try our best to express in terms of ourselves and our lives (the Relative). But the Precepts themselves are an embodiment of all things (Absolute)

At least that’s how is see it


Tairin
sat today and lah