Blue Cliff Record (Case 3) Master Ma is Unwell

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40617

    Blue Cliff Record (Case 3) Master Ma is Unwell

    I hope this finds you well.

    Our Koan this time is "Master Ma is Unwell."

    (By the way, I will be keeping only two Koans open at the same time, closing the others, so we all stay on the same page. However, anyone, feel free to drop in and join in at any time.)

    From the preamble in the POINTER to the COMMENTARIES, we are told 20 different ways how hard this Koan is.

    But this is not a hard Koan really.

    Sometimes when someone tells you 20 times how hard something is, that's because it really is not so hard, BUT ALSO they want to caution you that it might be taken in too shallow a way because of that seeming simplicity.

    Better said, what is hard is not understanding the point of the Koan, but to really get the subtle import of what is being said, and to have this Wisdom truly gotten in one's bones, not just a light, intellectual notion. The teaching here is REALLY important and at the heart of our Zen way.

    The POINTER is saying something like that teachers try all kinds of means ... with props, acts and words ... to get students to realize (Rev. Ma was famous for that), but it is like doing surgery on a healthy body. The patient just thinks he is sick, and if it goes wrong, one will just end up with a big gaping infection! But still, teachers must keep on trying ... for there is something to get (which cannot really be "gotten" ... with no "getter" apart from something to "be gotten") and this sweeps in the universe. It is beyond "searcher" and "something to search for" (which would be too divided thinking, too "cut off") so you can't look for it this way or that way. Yet it is here, there, everywhere. This is the disease to cure which cannot be cured and needs no cure.

    It is a big, fancy overture for a pretty simple Koan:

    Master Ma is sick (it is said that he died the next day.) When asked how his health is recently, he says "Sun Face Buddha" (said to live in the world for 1800 years)" and "Moon Face Buddha" (who dies after a single day and night.)

    In between, I suppose, we all have this life of ups and downs, sickness and health, longing and loss, birth and death.

    The COMMENTARY is filled with lots of images about not taking the lesson lightly. If you really understand you will walk freely in the wide open sky (if not, you will get lost and fall off the cliff.) Be willing to wrestle an ox, or a hungry man for his dinner, to really get this (don't take it lightly.) Yes, this "non-disease" cannot be cured with normal medicine (the disease which leaps thought "birth and death" even as Master Ma kicks the bucket!) Even sages can't convey this in words, so don't be like a monkey grasping mirages ... REALLY get this "can't be gotten" wonderful teaching.

    The VERSE speaks of "Ancient Emperors." Commentators disagree on the reference, but it probably means something like "Don't think of these as actual Buddhas or Kings to worship, but get the real import of what they represent." Maybe it means, "Oh, these great old teachers like Ma, who were they really, what were they really trying to get us to realize?"

    It took him twenty (many) years to go through the "school of hard knocks" to really get the import of the Wisdom here. The teacher goes down to the Dragon's cave, risking life and limb, to snatch the "Pearl of Wisdom" which the dragon clutches, to help his students. Monks, do not rest on your laurels, do not take it lightly.

    QUESTIONS:

    - How long will you live?

    - If Master Ma (or us, for that matter) was never really sick, why did he (we) die? Did he/we die like Bodhidharma died in the previous Koan?

    Our musical selection this week is Master Frank, singing of the sun and moon, and (if you listen closely) in between a tale of longing that never ceases, sorrow, sexual yearning and torment, thoughts that do not end night or day ...
    .




    Gassho, J
    stlah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-31-2024, 01:58 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Bion
    Senior Priest-in-Training
    • Aug 2020
    • 4775

    #2
    - How long will you live?
    The empty field is unobstructed in the ten directions. How could it be a matter of long or short?

    - If Master Ma (or us, for that matter) was never really sick, why did he (we) die? Did he/we die like Bodhidharma died in the previous Koan?
    To look for traces of old master Ma is like piling up the ashes to make wood." Look, look! Blink and you miss it." Where is Bodhidharma's other shoe?

    Gassho

    "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

    Comment

    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 40617

      #3
      Originally posted by Bion
      - How long will you live?
      The empty field is unobstructed in the ten directions. How could it be a matter of long or short?

      - If Master Ma (or us, for that matter) was never really sick, why did he (we) die? Did he/we die like Bodhidharma died in the previous Koan?
      To look for traces of old master Ma is like piling up the ashes to make wood." Look, look! Blink and you miss it." Where is Bodhidharma's other shoe?

      Gassho
      A little faux-Chinesey, but otherwise very nice responses.

      Gassho, J
      stlah
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

      Comment

      • Bion
        Senior Priest-in-Training
        • Aug 2020
        • 4775

        #4
        Originally posted by Jundo

        A little faux-Chinesey, but otherwise very nice responses.

        Gassho, J
        stlah
        ha! I swear to you they are genuinely me, zero attemtp to make them "chinesey". Thank you

        Gassho
        sat and lah
        "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40617

          #5
          Originally posted by Bion

          ha! I swear to you they are genuinely me, zero attemtp to make them "chinesey". Thank you

          Gassho
          sat and lah
          Well (and I have to tell folks, I am a little harder on our priest-trainees), try to find your own less "Master Grasshopper" voice next time.

          Gassho, J
          stlah
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Matt Johnson
            Member
            • Jun 2024
            • 458

            #6
            間 has a bad case of Siccadis...

            _/\_
            sat/ah
            مات
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            Comment

            • Bion
              Senior Priest-in-Training
              • Aug 2020
              • 4775

              #7
              Originally posted by Jundo

              Well (and I have to tell folks, I am a little harder on our priest-trainees), try to find your own less "Master Grasshopper" voice next time.

              Gassho, J
              stlah
              hop hop!

              Gassho
              sat and lah
              "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 40617

                #8
                Originally posted by Matt Johnson
                間 has a bad case of Siccadis...

                _/\_
                sat/ah
                مات
                Wrong "Ma." It is horse 馬, not open space 間.

                Why not try to play the game?

                Gassho, J
                ​​​​​​stlah
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                Comment

                • Houzan
                  Member
                  • Dec 2022
                  • 532

                  #9
                  1. Am I done with my meal when I take the last bite, metabolize the food, prepare the next meal, or take the first bite?
                  2a. If really sick, he wont.
                  2b. Sawaki’s fart is his own.

                  Gassho, Hōzan
                  satlah

                  Comment

                  • Chikyou
                    Member
                    • May 2022
                    • 666

                    #10
                    How long will I live?
                    - Forever. I am already dead.

                    If Master Ma was never really sick, why did he die?
                    - No old age and death. No cessation of old age and death.

                    Gassho,
                    SatLah
                    Chikyō
                    Chikyō 知鏡
                    (KellyLM)

                    Comment

                    • Brett
                      Member
                      • Mar 2024
                      • 143

                      #11
                      1. Until forgotten.
                      2. In death we convey the great matter the clearest, even 1800 years and one day is not enough for words alone.

                      St/lah
                      Gassho
                      Brett

                      Comment

                      • Matt Johnson
                        Member
                        • Jun 2024
                        • 458

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jundo

                        Wrong "Ma." It is horse 馬, not open space 間.

                        Why not try to play the game?
                        From the looks of things you have enough people doing that already.

                        _/\_
                        sat/ah
                        matt

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40617

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Matt Johnson

                          From the looks of things you have enough people doing that already.

                          _/\_
                          sat/ah
                          matt
                          If you are not going to play, why come to the poker game?

                          You should try.

                          Gassho, Jundo
                          stlah
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Onsho
                            Member
                            • Aug 2022
                            • 139

                            #14
                            the autumn leaves turn
                            without discrimination
                            returned to the ground

                            gassho
                            onshō
                            satlah

                            Comment

                            • Onkai
                              Senior Priest-in-Training
                              • Aug 2015
                              • 3067

                              #15
                              - How long will you live?

                              I'm constantly dying to my old self, yet I don't know when I will take my last breath, or what about me will continue.

                              -If Master Ma (or us, for that matter) was never really sick, why did he (we) die? Did he/we die like Bodhidharma died in the previous Koan?

                              Everything is always changing, yet there is a consistency in all the change. Master Ma passed away. A trace of Master Ma is still with us. Our bodies are temporary, but the universe is infinite. Our bodies and the universe are not one, not two.

                              Gassho,
                              Onkai
                              美道 Bidou Beautiful Way
                              恩海 Onkai Merciful/Kind Ocean

                              I have a lot to learn; take anything I say that sounds like teaching with a grain of salt.

                              Comment

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