SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Why Zen Folks FAIL!! (1) - A New Video & Podcast Series

[justdillon]

Thought provoking and modesty-inducing. Sometimes what you get is not what you expected. Sometimes what you expected was not what you needed to get. Thank you Jundo for this.

Gassho,
Dillon

[Ishin]

Hmmmmm

First Jundo let me just say thank you for doing these great talks; I find your human-ness refreshing, and that among many spiritual teachers is miracle enough.

I really felt compelled to address Ernst' comments, but also in a way that further illustrates, hopefully what Jundo is getting at here. Ersnt, I am a 20 year veteran of practicing Traditional Oriental Medicine, and I also am a Black Belt in Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu which has some of it's roots in Shaolin practices. I have spent my entire adult professional life in the alternative medical community and let me tell you I know exactly what you are talking about Ernst when you say you have seen some "miraculous" stuff. Unlike, Jundo based on my life experiences and what I still consider to be objective thinking I do tend to believe that some people can exhibit some fairly amazing powers, whether you talk about healing, martial arts, psychic abilities etc., my opinion varies here that these things DO exist. This issue of that view not being supported here was almost part of MY reason for an epic Zen failure.

The thing is, as Jundo was saying sometimes our tendency in the West is we tend to gravitate to some of these miraculous stories of some living gurus or old dead guys doing amazing things and we think "ok they have found a spiritual level that I want a part of" or this is evidence of their spiritual superiority. Frankly I think this comes partly from much of the traditional Christian background in the West, or frankly too many movies. But.....

BUT THAT ISN'T ZEN, BUDDHISM or ENLIGHTENMENT

This practice has nothing to do with developing superpowers, and having superpowers doesn't necessarily have to do with anything about being an enlightened being. If you could fly you could still be a completely deluded being, and the goal or purpose of this practice has nothing to do with acquiring knowledge of any of that stuff, it has to do with acquiring the state of being that brings us to see through both our eyes to a reality free form ignorance and delusion and suffering. If you can fly and are still unhappy because your girlfriend broke up with you, you are not there.

So, I think many people are lacking a basic understanding of what Buddhism is about and when there is no "magic" they get discouraged and look elsewhere but they are unable to see the treasure in front of them because they are looking for the wrong thing. I would highly, highly recommend this book for newcomers- Buddhism is Not What You Think, Steve Hagen.

Many of the esoteric practices that might be seen as "miraculous" by people are derived from Taoist or other energetic practices in Asia involving the use of chi or prana. Certainly amazing and personally an interest of mine, but not the goal or purpose of Zen. I once knew a lady who was an incredibly gifted psychic who was a very miserable and mean spirited person.

Incidentally much of what goes on at Shaolin these days has been criticized as turning monks into "performance monks". According to the book American Shaolin, they don't even sit much. It has been reduced to a tourist trap for visitors interested in martial arts, and the current head abbot of the Shaolin Temple is embroiled in scandal due to his profiteering and involvements with prostitutes.

I regret not being more eloquent here, but I think this gets my point across well enough

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today- and didn't levitate once.

[Byokan]

...I really felt compelled to address Ernst' comments, but also in a way that further illustrates, hopefully what Jundo is getting at here. Ersnt, I am a 20 year veteran of practicing Traditional Oriental Medicine, and I also am a Black Belt in Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu which has some of it's roots in Shaolin practices. I have spent my entire adult professional life in the alternative medical community and let me tell you I know exactly what you are talking about Ernst when you say you have seen some "miraculous" stuff. Unlike, Jundo based on my life experiences and what I still consider to be objective thinking I do tend to believe that some people can exhibit some fairly amazing powers, whether you talk about healing, martial arts, psychic abilities etc., my opinion varies here that these things DO exist. This issue of that view not being supported here was almost part of MY reason for an epic Zen failure.

Hi Ishin,

this part of your comment caught my eye, and I just want to tell you that your “different” view is absolutely supported here, if the individual support of Sangha members counts. I am here, and I value scientific and objective thinking, and I also support you and your own experience 100%. For the record, I have had a few such experiences. But even if I hadn’t had any such experiences, I know that as time marches on, some current scientific truths will turn out to be laughably grounded in misperception and ignorance, and some things that seem miraculous or undefinable will find scientific explanations.

As you say, very eloquently and clearly, this is an entirely separate thing from Zen.

As Buddhists, we are encouraged to look deeply into our own experience to find the truth. I’d be sad if issues like this made anyone feel they didn’t belong here. What is required here at Treeleaf is not a certain set of beliefs, but an active Soto Zen practice. That's my understanding anyway.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Jundo]

Hmmmmm

First Jundo let me just say thank you for doing these great talks; I find your human-ness refreshing, and that among many spiritual teachers is miracle enough.

I really felt compelled to address Ernst' comments, but also in a way that further illustrates, hopefully what Jundo is getting at here. Ersnt, I am a 20 year veteran of practicing Traditional Oriental Medicine, and I also am a Black Belt in Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu which has some of it's roots in Shaolin practices. I have spent my entire adult professional life in the alternative medical community and let me tell you I know exactly what you are talking about Ernst when you say you have seen some "miraculous" stuff. Unlike, Jundo based on my life experiences and what I still consider to be objective thinking I do tend to believe that some people can exhibit some fairly amazing powers, whether you talk about healing, martial arts, psychic abilities etc., my opinion varies here that these things DO exist. This issue of that view not being supported here was almost part of MY reason for an epic Zen failure.

The thing is, as Jundo was saying sometimes our tendency in the West is we tend to gravitate to some of these miraculous stories of some living gurus or old dead guys doing amazing things and we think "ok they have found a spiritual level that I want a part of" or this is evidence of their spiritual superiority. Frankly I think this comes partly from much of the traditional Christian background in the West, or frankly too many movies. But.....

BUT THAT ISN'T ZEN, BUDDHISM or ENLIGHTENMENT

This practice has nothing to do with developing superpowers, and having superpowers doesn't necessarily have to do with anything about being an enlightened being. If you could fly you could still be a completely deluded being, and the goal or purpose of this practice has nothing to do with acquiring knowledge of any of that stuff, it has to do with acquiring the state of being that brings us to see through both our eyes to a reality free form ignorance and delusion and suffering. If you can fly and are still unhappy because your girlfriend broke up with you, you are not there.

So, I think many people are lacking a basic understanding of what Buddhism is about and when there is no "magic" they get discouraged and look elsewhere but they are unable to see the treasure in front of them because they are looking for the wrong thing. I would highly, highly recommend this book for newcomers- Buddhism is Not What You Think, Steve Hagen.

Many of the esoteric practices that might be seen as "miraculous" by people are derived from Taoist or other energetic practices in Asia involving the use of chi or prana. Certainly amazing and personally an interest of mine, but not the goal or purpose of Zen. I once knew a lady who was an incredibly gifted psychic who was a very miserable and mean spirited person.

Incidentally much of what goes on at Shaolin these days has been criticized as turning monks into "performance monks". According to the book American Shaolin, they don't even sit much. It has been reduced to a tourist trap for visitors interested in martial arts, and the current head abbot of the Shaolin Temple is embroiled in scandal due to his profiteering and involvements with prostitutes.

I regret not being more eloquent here, but I think this gets my point across well enough

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today- and didn't levitate once.

Hi Ishin,

Oh, I completely support all that is written here. I am skeptical about some wilder claims, but not closed to the subject.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I am just doubtful of some of the more extreme claims made sometimes, and anyway just as you say, it is not central to Practice.

If there is levitation, telekinesis, distance healing and/or ESP ... chop wood and fetch water, just sit.

If there is no levitation, telekinesis, distance healing nor ESP ... chop wood and fetch water, just sit.

In any case, we sit as what is. whether with or without. Further, the real miracle, magic and wonder to the wise who can see is the chopping of wood and the fetching of water. Just sit.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - My interview at the Skeptical Buddhist on these topics should be up any day now. Stay tuned.

[Sekishi]

Powers of levitation, telekinesis, distance healing, ESP (and pretty much any other super powers you'd like to throw in) would not negate the first noble truth.

A superhero of any stripe would still suffer from Dukkha thanks to sickness, old age, and death (and if not their own, then that of their friends and loved ones).

So come heaven or hell, superpowers or mundane, practice is practice.

Which I guess is what Jundo and others are saying. ^_^

Gassho,
Sekishi

[Ishin]

Hi Ishin,

Oh, I completely support all that is written here. I am skeptical about some wilder claims, but not closed to the subject.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I am just doubtful of some of the more extreme claims made sometimes, and anyway just as you say, it is not central to Practice.

If there is levitation, telekinesis, distance healing and/or ESP ... chop wood and fetch water, just sit.

If there is no levitation, telekinesis, distance healing nor ESP ... chop wood and fetch water, just sit.

In any case, we sit as what is. whether with or without. Further, the real miracle, magic and wonder to the wise who can see is the chopping of wood and the fetching of water. Just sit.

Gassho, J

SatToday

PS - My interview at the Skeptical Buddhist on these topics should be up any day now. Stay tuned.

Thank you

I am certainly not saying that the world isn't also full of con artists and fakes. If you watch some of the martial art videos of supposed masters throwing students around it kind of becomes akin to speaking in tongues and writhing on the floor.

My personal view is that many people chase after religion in an effort to stroke their ego, and when they encounter something that says the goal is to let go of the self and there is no ego really anyway, that undermines their true agenda consciously or not. For many it really is about attaining some sense of superiority. I am still not convinced that some of the more well known Buddhist icons out there don't fall into this category as well.

I wish I could find the video of Gudo Wafu Roshii where the young woman asks him about all the "amazing energy that emits from him." His response is great, and the question itself I think reveals much about misunderstandings in the West about what a Zen Master is and why many Westerners seek them out in the first place.

Gassho
Ishin
Sat Today- and still didn't levitate

[Onkai]

Thank you, Jundo, and everyone in this discussion.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[treebeard]

Thank you for this Jundo, due to personal experience with the unpredictability of life (there has been whole lot a Dukkha going on) which I could not control I was desperate not for something that would eliminate it all (as over time it became clear no deliverance was coming), but for something to help me deal with it all. Soto Zen appealed to me as it had few promises of expectations from outside but seemed to be more focused on what we do on the inside to "keep the ship afloat" so to speak despite storms, waves, calm, and such. I would welcome a supernatural miracle anytime one wanders into my life, but I am learning to be content with the miracles of toast, bird song, continuing life, air to breath (which is not that common in the universe in actuality) as you referenced earlier in the thread. I come from a religion that tries to be all things to all people and requires a ton of time on a weekly basis, all with the promise of deliverance and happiness. It actually caused great harm to me with my mental issues and not being able to let go of some things and find expectations constantly failing. Things are a lot more peaceful inside my head with less expectations and more appreciating the moment for what it is. I really have no expectations that Soto Zen will solve any of my issues, It may not even help me accept them some days, in fact, it hasn't done anything for me other than teach me to understand things better and with understanding often comes peace of sorts, which itself is a miracle. I don't need to be healed of all my problems and have the people around me suddenly understand me or have their often violent health issues (for which I am a caregiver as a parent) go away, if I can learn to observe, understand, and to drop expectations and be content with rendering service where able, and understanding I am only human and a small peace of this universe after all when I am not, then that is enough.

Anyway, thanks for reminding me of that today(even though this is months old ).

Gassho,
Paul
Sat Today

[Jundo]

Thank you for this Jundo, due to personal experience with the unpredictability of life (there has been whole lot a Dukkha going on) which I could not control I was desperate not for something that would eliminate it all (as over time it became clear no deliverance was coming), but for something to help me deal with it all. Soto Zen appealed to me as it had few promises of expectations from outside but seemed to be more focused on what we do on the inside to "keep the ship afloat" so to speak despite storms, waves, calm, and such. I would welcome a supernatural miracle anytime one wanders into my life, but I am learning to be content with the miracles of toast, bird song, continuing life, air to breath (which is not that common in the universe in actuality) as you referenced earlier in the thread. I come from a religion that tries to be all things to all people and requires a ton of time on a weekly basis, all with the promise of deliverance and happiness. It actually caused great harm to me with my mental issues and not being able to let go of some things and find expectations constantly failing. Things are a lot more peaceful inside my head with less expectations and more appreciating the moment for what it is. I really have no expectations that Soto Zen will solve any of my issues, It may not even help me accept them some days, in fact, it hasn't done anything for me other than teach me to understand things better and with understanding often comes peace of sorts, which itself is a miracle. I don't need to be healed of all my problems and have the people around me suddenly understand me or have their often violent health issues (for which I am a caregiver as a parent) go away, if I can learn to observe, understand, and to drop expectations and be content with rendering service where able, and understanding I am only human and a small peace of this universe after all when I am not, then that is enough.

Anyway, thanks for reminding me of that today(even though this is months old ).

Gassho,
Paul
Sat Today

Thank you. This was a morning in which I could use your reminder too. Thank you for your Teaching.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

if I can learn to observe, understand, and to drop expectations and be content with rendering service where able, and understanding I am only human and a small peace of this universe after all when I am not, then that is enough.

Wrestling with insomnia here tonight feeling disorganized and inadequate as business decisions, upcoming work challenges, staff issues, household problems and grumpy turbulent teenagers swirl around in my head. I thank you for this reminder too!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

[Gokai]

Thank you very much Jundo.

When I started practicing zazen I thought the world would change magically. It's like someone sold me the idea or how I bought it. But fortunately I learned that it was not so, and these teachings reinforced this idea.

Gassho, David

Sattoday

[Jundo]

Thank you very much Jundo.

When I started practicing zazen I thought the world would change magically. It's like someone sold me the idea or how I bought it. But fortunately I learned that it was not so, and these teachings reinforced this idea.

Gassho, David

Sattoday

And I hope that realizing how wondrous and magical is this so-called "ordinary world" truly changed everything!

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Doshin]

And I hope that realizing how wondrous and magical is this so-called "ordinary world" truly changed everything!

Gassho, J

SatToday

yes!!!!!

Gasho
Doshin
sattoday

[Daiyo]

I'm going over this series of talks for a second time and find them (again) very nurturing.

Thanks.

Gassho,
Daiyo

ST/Lah

[SoR]

Thank you for your teaching, Jundo!

This is an important topic. I'm someone who has struggled to consistently be active with a sangha in the physical world, so I can say that your efforts with Treeleaf are very important for so many people to not fail in their practice.

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#SatToday