Sisyphus

[Jinyo]

As Lama Govinda said, "All suffering arises from attitude. The world is neither good nor bad. It is solely our relationship to it which makes it either one or the other." So, even if it's a bad day, "every day is a good day."

I do struggle with the above - partly because it's a teaching that has (IMHO) been extrapolated and used in so many other contexts - particularly New Age therapy, etc. to not particularly good effect. Attached to in a limited way it becomes a philosophy that produces many forms of relativism, can be nihilistic and spawns mind-numbing techniques of 'blaming'. Self blame - and blaming others - for somehow not getting it, not having a positive attitude, failing to turn things round, etc.

What does ''the World'' refer to? Is it all the dharmas - the many thousand things? Is it a neutral entity from which we fashion our lives - creating good and evil in the process?

The stumbling block I come up against is that for a teaching to feel valid (for me - at the level of inner integrity) it has to have a universal essence. I want to find the universal essence in this teaching - because it carries great wisdom - but I'm not 100% there.

There is just too much tragedy and heart ache in the world to apply the teaching in a universal context. At the level of the particular it is true that we create the world we live in in our mind - our own singular minds - but our singular minds connect to other minds. If I witness another person in a hell state - in circumstances beyond their control - I need to register 'bad'. Something 'bad' is happening for that person.

I really worry about the 'turn arounds' - say in the teaching of Byron Katie. Sometimes a 'turn around' is a negation of a person's reality and can be very damaging. Sometimes its the route to a negation of ethics.

Does it mean I can't be a buddhist if I don't agree that good and bad is always a question of mental attitude?


I come back to this question often

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

I do struggle with the above - partly because it's a teaching that has (IMHO) been extrapolated and used in so many other contexts - particularly New Age therapy, etc. to not particularly good effect. Attached to in a limited way it becomes a philosophy that produces many forms of relativism, can be nihilistic and spawns mind-numbing techniques of 'blaming'. Self blame - and blaming others - for somehow not getting it, not having a positive attitude, failing to turn things round, etc.

What does ''the World'' refer to? Is it all the dharmas - the many thousand things? Is it a neutral entity from which we fashion our lives - creating good and evil in the process?

The stumbling block I come up against is that for a teaching to feel valid (for me - at the level of inner integrity) it has to have a universal essence. I want to find the universal essence in this teaching - because it carries great wisdom - but I'm not 100% there.

There is just too much tragedy and heart ache in the world to apply the teaching in a universal context. At the level of the particular it is true that we create the world we live in in our mind - our own singular minds - but our singular minds connect to other minds. If I witness another person in a hell state - in circumstances beyond their control - I need to register 'bad'. Something 'bad' is happening for that person.

Hi Willow,

I am not describing some naive, feel good "don't worry, be happy" "think positive thoughts" optimism. I am discussing a radical wholeness with life that is positive and optimistic in a way that sees this world head on, with all its beauty and ugliness, pain and war as much as pleasure and peace. It is much the same as saying that one sees a certain positive beauty and wholeness in the ocean ... even with the sharks and Tsunami and deadly storms and oil spills. It is much as I might find great harmony and beauty in my garden, right as the spiders trapping flies, weeds and flowers with thorns. The fly and the spider and weeds are just doing their natural dance ... and only the human might judge it cruel or ugly or out of place. We might have a higher perspective on what is going on that holds all that.

When we drop all judgments, allowing all to be as it is, we sense that the world is flowing like the sea, growing and blossoming like the garden ... and us along with it. It is a "Positive" only encountered when we abandon all demands and sit right at the point where our human scale of "positive vs. negative" is dropped away.

Buddhism does have a very definite sense of personal responsibility and "right vs. wrong" ... represented by the Precepts, and the guidance to be free from greed, anger and the like. However, we also sit beyond our small human sense of what we consider "right" and "wrong" ... and thus somehow taste something Right. It is not "neutral" ... but vibrantly Right and Alive.

Gassho, J

[Nenka]

Thanks, Jundo. And Willow. This is a really useful thread!

Gassho

Jen

[Jinyo]

Hi Jundo - not meaning at all to negate the teaching here - and I think I understand that when we sit, we sit at one with the wholeness that is ever present, along with the fragmentation and chaos. I think this is difficult - perhaps impossible to describe/fully express in words.

But I do struggle to drop all demands - to let go of a human scale of positive and negative. Doubts and questions - an inevitable part of the process?

Thank you for your teaching,

Gassho

Willow

[Kyonin]

To drop judgments is so hard, yet comes naturally sometimes.

Thank you for this beautiful teaching.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[mr.Lou]

I am discussing a radical wholeness with life that is positive and optimistic in a way that sees this world head on, with all its beauty and ugliness, pain and war as much as pleasure and peace.

Everything is one and the same even though everything is different?

[Daitetsu]

Everything is one and the same even though everything is different?

Different, but not separate

[MyoHo]

Maybe look at it this way? Darkness can only be known in light and the light can not be without darkness. Together they are one, separate they do not exist. This is the same with nothing and everything. Wet or dry, high or low, me and you, how else could we see the differance? Just don't go look for good or bad.

Gassho

Enkyo

[Jundo]

Everything is one and the same even though everything is different?

Hi Lou,

Well, I am not going to say this is actually "wrong", but to put it so simply really misses how it must be lived and profoundly realized in one's bones and the richness of what is entailed.

Otherwise, it is like describing our whole planet as "just a revolving dustball on space", love and marriage as "a vehicle to pass on genes to future generations", the Atlantic Ocean as "a lot of salty water". The statement is accurate in its way, but misses the mark nonetheless for leaving out the life and richness and full implications.

Hi Jundo - not meaning at all to negate the teaching here - and I think I understand that when we sit, we sit at one with the wholeness that is ever present, along with the fragmentation and chaos. I think this is difficult - perhaps impossible to describe/fully express in words.

Well, I experience the "wholeness" as the very "fragmentation" and "chaos" ... especially when I stop indulging in words and labels like "whole" "fragmented" and "chaotic".

But I do struggle to drop all demands - to let go of a human scale of positive and negative. Doubts and questions - an inevitable part of the process?

That struggle is our Practice. Doubts and questions are at the very heart, and can be celebrated. There is a saying, "Great Doubt, Great Awakening", and the Korean Teacher, Seung Sahn, spoke of just keeping "Don't Know Mind". I sometimes write like this:

By "Great Not Knowing", I mean that there are so many questions we might have about this life ...

... and sometimes, in this Practice, those Big Questions are answered for us, very clearly and precisely. Our Practice provides some very specific (and wonderful) answers to some 'Big Questions' when we approach the problem differently from our usual ways.

... and sometimes, in this Practice, those questions drop away for the very question was of our own making all along (like "how many angels on the head of a pin"), also a very clear answer of sorts.

... and sometimes, in this Practice, there are things about life we small human beings still cannot know ... but that's cool. Some mysteries remain, but we yield to that, allow that, let the mysteries remain mysterious. That "allowing" is a very clear answer too in its way. I sometimes compare us to the young infant who cannot understand the shadows passing before its eyes as food is placed in its mouth ... like the husband who will never know every mysterious aspect of his own wife ... yet knows, yet trusts, yet fully understands somehow.

...

Shikantaza is thoroughgoing, intense, to the marrow dropping of all searching (even as we search), whereby there can be no thought of doubt even as we doubt. Do we doubt or free ourselves of doubt? NO DOUBT! Sitting itself is Great Doubt Awakening realized, the mystery of the Genjo Koan come to life ... the great constantly answered-unanswered Koan that is right before our eyes.

Who will win the World Series next year? What is God's shoe size? What is the cure for cancer? Not even a Buddha knows for sure. Why do bad things happen, why is life and this world the way it is? Some possible Buddhist answers, yet more questions. But what is the Answer shining in/as/through-and-through all the questions?

Buddha (Big "K") Knows.

When we get beyond our daily mind of analyzing, naming, and figuring out, there is just a Big Know ... much as one truly comes to merge into a love relationship or experiencing a sunrise (even if not knowing every aspect and mystery of one's lover or of the sun) when we stop "thinking about/critiquing/narrating" what we are doing as we are doing it, and Just Do, Just Allow, Just Be. Thus is the certain knowing of a breeze on the cheek, a raindrop, child's smile, a grain of sand ... each and all fully known to hold all time and space, and to shine like a jewel.

You know, Master Dogen used to use interrogatives ... like "What?" ... as affirmatives ... like "What!" ... (For example, in one section of Shobogenzo, he takes a question by the sixth ancestor Hui-neng “ What is this that comes thus?” and changes it into an affirmation, something like "Yes, WHAT THUS COMES!")

Gassho, J

[Nengyo]

the Korean Teacher, Seung Sahn, spoke of just keeping "Don't Know Mind".

FINALLY! Something in zen that I have down pat!

This was an excellent teaching from everyone. I tried to add some personal thoughts on this "good and bad" business, but as happens frequently in zen, the words I came up with fell short. Today I will make an effort to look at the world as neither good nor bad, even as I notice all the good and bad in it. I'm also going to try to smile more. Hopefully, people won't think I've went crazy or something

[Marcelo de Valnisio]

BUT (AND THIS IS MY MAIN POINT) ... every second, he must keep pushing because, if he stops, he will be run over ... and every second he risks tripping up and being crushed by that boulder! Practice never ends during this life! There is no guaranty ... even if you have been doing a glorious 'smashing' job of pushing that boulder 30 years ... that you will not stumble in the next step and be smashed!

Still, the burden is not just "carrying a burden" ... but is the whole voyage of living life, and the "burdens" are our walking shoes!

I believe it goes against our way of wanting to achieve a goal in a gap of time. Generally we act to achieve something ... a good that satisfies us ... we walk to get some place, but the walk is the place itself, isn't it?

Gassho.

[Myosha]

Thank you teacher.

BTW - Sisyphus is grateful to have a JOB!^^


Gassho,
Edward

[Heion]

Jundo,

That was beautiful!

Thank you so much for this.

Gassho,
Alex

[Getchi]

I am so grateful for this thread, it has answered a lot of questions.

Jundo, that is the clearest description of what we "should" be doing that I might cry ; thankyou so much to everyone in this thread, esp. to those I've never met!


Gassho,
Geoff; a student.


SatToday, and now I'll sit another.

[Washin]

Thank you for digging this thread up, Geoff.
What a great analogy indeed. Thank you, Jundo

Gassho
Washin
sat-today