How to attain enlightenment ...

[Jishin]

How to attain enlightenment ...

Thanks, Jundo. I feel now the need to sit on your words and study your aforementioned koans to let everything you’ve said sink in.

Jakuden, I wonder the same.

Jishin, that’s a deep and interesting question. In regard to what it is, there’s this old thread Jundo posted about eight different types of enlightenment. Leaving aside the paradoxical/metaphorical/allegorical speech for a moment, I’m honestly not sure which of these are correct, or if all, none, or somewhere in between are correct. At some point people have somewhere labelled them all as “Enlightenment” and perhaps even labelled them all as “not Enlightenment”.

Furthermore, in the Pali Canon, people were getting enlightened left and right. These days, I think it’s hard to say for sure if anyone is fully enlightened. Perhaps some people are or are at least close. It can be hard to tell for sure.

In regard to what I’d do with enlightenment, I’d have to decide what to do with enlightenment once I understand what it is. Until that time comes, if it comes, words are just words, but perhaps one way it could be said is I follow the Kalama Sutta until then:
Buddha: Does absence of [greed, hatred, and delusion] appear in a man for his benefit or harm?"
Kalamas: "For his benefit, venerable sir."
Buddha: "Undertaken and observed, do these things lead to benefit and happiness, or not? Or how does it strike you?"
Kalamas: “Undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness. Thus it strikes us here."

I know that’s not the most Zen way to phrase it but all my Zenergy ran out in the last few posts and needs to re-charge.

Gassho, Paul.

Sat today.

Hi Paul,

Everyone is attached to something, big or small. That said, you are attached to enlightenment. Big stuff.

The Heart Sutra says no attaining with nothing to attain.

Originally there is no enlightenment. It is a product of our minds. Don't make enlightenment with your mind and you won't have to look for it. Kind of like trying to catch your shadow. What is the best way to do that? Stand still.

Just my 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

Hi Paul,

Everyone is attached to something, little or small. That said, you are attached to enlightenment. Big stuff.

The Heart Sutra says no attaining with nothing to attain.

Originally there is no enlightenment. It is a product of our minds. Don't make enlightenment with your mind and you won't have to look for it. Kind of like trying to catch your shadow. What is the best way to do that? Stand still.

Just my 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Nice Jishin. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Tai Shi]

Jundo, teacher

I have learned much of the everlasting pain which is always there, which stays like a spoiled child, demanding, which I cannot ignore, and substitution with not distraction, and like all impediments, will be as I will let be, always in the background--so the leaving is possible with acceptance. Then and only then, the tantrums subside--is not exactly enlightenment, more sitting with this younger brother born in 1992, and I was born in 1951, neither was pain born but came into existence on that early spring morning I could not get out of bed--so I live with it as a teacher, insidious, fateful, and determined. Always giving in, in the letting it exist.

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Mitty-san]

Hi Jishin,

Hmmmm. Enlightenment is one of my many attachments, both big and small.

In the Pali Canon, enlightenment was the last attachment to get rid of, although the Pali Canon isn’t used in Zen usually.

Back to Zen, in my understanding, Dogen said Zazen and enlightenment are the same. I suppose that might help people give up attachment to enlightenment, perhaps myself included, in time. In Jodo Shinshu, which arose around the same time as Soto Zen, practitioners gave up attachment to enlightenment by believing they’d be reborn in the Pure Land where they’ll get enlightened pretty much automatically, all the while reciting the Nembutsu, which technically isn’t a mantra, but is practiced in way similar to one. For both they practice without a goal, at least in a sense. As you said, enlightenment is a product of our mind. Perhaps both sects try to achieve the same non-goal using different products of mind.

Or maybe I’m just rambling a bit.

Perhaps it’s time to drop everything and sit some more.

, Paul

Sat today.

[Jishin]

Hi Paul,

There is no such thing as enlightenment. It's just a carrot teachers wave in front of students to encourage them to practice. [emoji3]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ishin]

There seems to me, to be something about Zen, that encourages or attracts intellectualism. Partly, this is encouraging, as I find my fellow sangha members are some pretty sharp people, who have come to Zen and Buddhism having done some sincere and in depth thinking about it. On the other hand, sometimes it seems that this approach, the intellectual seeking, has it's limits. Buddha's invitation to us to try and see, test for ourselves, reinforces that this is a practice. Practice and test, both nouns, but also verbs. Isn't there something strange about turning our practice into discussion and debate? At first I had many questions, and admittedly still do, however, dwelling on these can give rise to something altogether different. Jundo, once posted something about how people in some study would rather die than just sit. WHO is it that has all these questions? Is it really about learning, or is it the little us, avoiding the verbal part of practice, giving into speculation rather than the actual work. Are we wanting to understand enlightenment because we want a POINT to practice? Are we afraid of getting fooled? Or is it that there is just some part of our ego that really is wildly insecure about loosing the "self".

Gassho
Ishin

Sat Today

[Jishin]

I don't know much but I do know this:

My enlightenment is bigger than yours.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Joyo]

I don't know much but I do know this:

My enlightenment is bigger than yours.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

whoa, tmi

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jundo]

On the other hand, sometimes it seems that this approach, the intellectual seeking, has it's limits. Buddha's invitation to us to try and see, test for ourselves, reinforces that this is a practice. Practice and test, both nouns, but also verbs. Isn't there something strange about turning our practice into discussion and debate?

There is also this fact: An aspect of our practice is to encounter and embody such in which there are no "two sides", no "topic", and each and all are what it are. How can one "debate" about "that" when no "this," when debate and "sides" and debaters is impossible? Thus, no "enlightenment" in contrast to "ignorance" is possible too.

All this-thatless simultaneously "not one not two" and intimately whole with our world of sides and right/wrong and ideas and opinions and debates and "me and you" debaters and this and that.

If we must say something to express this reality, it cannot neglect to somehow (it ain't easy!) capture all of the above reality(s) at once, as one.

As well, this "Practice-Enlightenment" is something to be embodied, lived and breathed. So, that is much more the field of "Enlightenment" action than some debate room.

To realize (in the bones) and realize (in how we make it "real" in life) is "Enlightenment" in my book.

That is the problem with overly intellectual approaches to expressing Zen Truth(s).

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

There seems to me, to be something about Zen, that encourages or attracts intellectualism. Partly, this is encouraging, as I find my fellow sangha members are some pretty sharp people, who have come to Zen and Buddhism having done some sincere and in depth thinking about it. On the other hand, sometimes it seems that this approach, the intellectual seeking, has it's limits. Buddha's invitation to us to try and see, test for ourselves, reinforces that this is a practice. Practice and test, both nouns, but also verbs. Isn't there something strange about turning our practice into discussion and debate? At first I had many questions, and admittedly still do, however, dwelling on these can give rise to something altogether different. Jundo, once posted something about how people in some study would rather die than just sit. WHO is it that has all these questions? Is it really about learning, or is it the little us, avoiding the verbal part of practice, giving into speculation rather than the actual work. Are we wanting to understand enlightenment because we want a POINT to practice? Are we afraid of getting fooled? Or is it that there is just some part of our ego that really is wildly insecure about loosing the "self".

Gassho
Ishin

Sat Today

Ishin, I grok your post. Lol. I was drawn to Zen in my 20's because I suffered and my quest to end suffering led me there, along with curiosity and the tendency to "think outside the box." But it was as you describe, "intellectual seeking," and I was convinced that there was an intellectual answer to every question for a long time. And I was definitely "wildly insecure about losing the self," as you put it... it didn't seem possible to let go of all those personal goals for happiness, comfort, success! It took over 20 years of on-off sitting and off-the-cushion cultivation of mindfulness to finally result in the realization that This Was It, meaning my butt on the cushion, not reading another Zen book or having another philosophical discussion with myself or others. Treeleaf has reinforced this wonderfully, not in the least because for every intellectual discussion thread posted, there's usually a member that will admonish us to "throw it all away and just sit."

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Joyo]

Ishin, I grok your post. Lol. I was drawn to Zen in my 20's because I suffered and my quest to end suffering led me there, along with curiosity and the tendency to "think outside the box." But it was as you describe, "intellectual seeking," and I was convinced that there was an intellectual answer to every question for a long time. And I was definitely "wildly insecure about losing the self," as you put it... it didn't seem possible to let go of all those personal goals for happiness, comfort, success! It took over 20 years of on-off sitting and off-the-cushion cultivation of mindfulness to finally result in the realization that This Was It, meaning my butt on the cushion, not reading another Zen book or having another philosophical discussion with myself or others. Treeleaf has reinforced this wonderfully, not in the least because for every intellectual discussion thread posted, there's usually a member that will admonish us to "throw it all away and just sit."

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Your thoughts and experiences are so similar to my own. And I still need the reminders from others here at Treeleaf as well to throw it all away and just sit. It sure makes for a nice way to live, doesn't it.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat tody

[Jishin]

How can one "debate" about "that" when no "this," when debate and "sides" and debaters is impossible? Thus, no "enlightenment" in contrast to "ignorance" is possible too.

Nicely put. Thank you.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jika]

Hi all,

sorry to interfere with Ishin's observation.

I just thought I'd read a thread Jishin has answered to, because Jishin's answer feel to me like something I might enjoy to read.

I'm not posting this to diminish other answers, but because I feel my current situation fits into this thread:
Zenny Zen gives me headaches.
(Sorry, Jishin, of course you are very Zen, too. But sometimes a good read.)

I know this is not being "done" by anything or anyone, just my perception.

My situation now is, I can't read books or focus on longer posts.
I can't sew.

I CAN sit.
And while this felt like really enough when I joined Treeleaf, I now feel there is so much more to know, much more work to do.
I feel I'm failing standards.

I have no idea what enlightenment is, and I don't really care.
Only, how can I support this Sangha when I have so little understanding?

Maybe Jundo's post above has answered my question, but unfortunately I don't get one sentence.

Byokan, you onve suggested "Overthinkers Anonymous".

Anyone in for a "Sitting for Dummies"-group?

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

[Jundo]

Hi all,

sorry to interfere with Ishin's observation.

I just thought I'd read a thread Jishin has answered to, because Jishin's answer feel to me like something I might enjoy to read.

I'm not posting this to diminish other answers, but because I feel my current situation fits into this thread:
Zenny Zen gives me headaches.
(Sorry, Jishin, of course you are very Zen, too. But sometimes a good read.)

I know this is not being "done" by anything or anyone, just my perception.

My situation now is, I can't read books or focus on longer posts.
I can't sew.

I CAN sit.
And while this felt like really enough when I joined Treeleaf, I now feel there is so much more to know, much more work to do.
I feel I'm failing standards.

I have no idea what enlightenment is, and I don't really care.
Only, how can I support this Sangha when I have so little understanding?

Maybe Jundo's post above has answered my question, but unfortunately I don't get one sentence.

Byokan, you onve suggested "Overthinkers Anonymous".

Anyone in for a "Sitting for Dummies"-group?

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

Just sit. There is nothing more or less.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jakuden]

Hi all,

sorry to interfere with Ishin's observation.

I just thought I'd read a thread Jishin has answered to, because Jishin's answer feel to me like something I might enjoy to read.

I'm not posting this to diminish other answers, but because I feel my current situation fits into this thread:
Zenny Zen gives me headaches.
(Sorry, Jishin, of course you are very Zen, too. But sometimes a good read.)

I know this is not being "done" by anything or anyone, just my perception.

My situation now is, I can't read books or focus on longer posts.
I can't sew.

I CAN sit.
And while this felt like really enough when I joined Treeleaf, I now feel there is so much more to know, much more work to do.
I feel I'm failing standards.

I have no idea what enlightenment is, and I don't really care.
Only, how can I support this Sangha when I have so little understanding?

Maybe Jundo's post above has answered my question, but unfortunately I don't get one sentence.

Byokan, you onve suggested "Overthinkers Anonymous".

Anyone in for a "Sitting for Dummies"-group?

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

Jika I will gladly be in your "Sitting for Dummies" group. I miss you when I don't see you around here, so you must be supporting this Sangha whether you think you have enough understanding of the Dharma or not. At this point in time, it is not feasible for me to intensively study any topic and I am often too tired or brain-fried to read Zen literature with a clear mind or even understand the posts here. But, I like to be here and give stuff the chance to either soak in or roll off, and I trust what Jundo says that it is all OK as long as we Just Sit. You are an important part of this Sangha and I am grateful to take this journey with people like you.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday