A Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

[Jundo]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

My point was not that all constructs were samsara, my point was that unconsciously building constructs, without awareness, is samsara.

At no point do I have the ambition to be able to keep my mind from creating these constructs, although, when I sit quietly, the construction slows down a bit. IMHO, these constructions are natural, and not to be fought, but that one can be aware amidst them.

A dream can be a beautiful dream, but one can experience it more fully, and with less suffering, if one is awake within the dream.

This is just my understanding. Please correct me.

Chet

Said very nicely, I think.

Yes, we live in a world where our head is constantly filled with "mental constructs" and our Zen practice allows us to avoid unconsciously building (and getting trapped by) constructs without awareness. In other words, our heads are still filled with thoughts and emotions, but we can recognize each more as just a bit of mind created theatre. We still need those thoughts and emotions to live as human beings but (1) we do not take them as seriously all the time, and learn how not to get overly wrapped up in them (2) thus we can moderate some, savor and cherish others to-the-marrow, drop others fully away.

It is a sometimes beautiful and sometimes ugly bit of living theatre (a dream, yet really our lives ... so real as real can be that way).

Our Zen Practice helps us move through it, even as we reject none of it.

Thanks Chet.

Gassho, Jundo

[Taigu]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

If I may say, indeed Chet. A bit like a wheel, if you stand at the very edge, the ride is bumpy and the speed may really get you a bit dizzy. Caught in thoughts is rough. In sitting, we don t escape the wheel of Samsara, the wheel of rebirth, we don t reach out for an answer outside this wheel, it could be God, heaven, cosmic Buddhas, name it...
we sit ate the very centre of the wheel, and the very centre of this wheel is perfectly still, from there you can enjoy the whole show, the whole display of Samsara. From there, Samsara is perceived through Nirvana. This Samsara stuff is like Nirvana. Another very famous Buddhist verse will describe this as Mountains are mountains again, rivers rivers again, but not exactly the same as the one you saw the first time.

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

If I may say, indeed Chet. A bit like a wheel, if you stand at the very edge, the ride is bumpy and the speed may really get you a bit dizzy. Caught in thoughts is rough. In sitting, we don t escape the wheel of Samsara, the wheel of rebirth, we don t reach out for an answer outside this wheel, it could be God, heaven, cosmic Buddhas, name it...
we sit ate the very centre of the wheel, and the very centre of this wheel is perfectly still, from there you can enjoy the whole show, the whole display of Samsara. From there, Samsara is perceived through Nirvana. This Samsara stuff is like Nirvana. Another very famous Buddhist verse will describe this as Mountains are mountains again, rivers rivers again, but not exactly the same as the one you saw the first time.

Taigu

Excellent description, IMHO! Who wants 'out'? Where would that even be?

Nirvana is just Samsara with the lights turned on!

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

If I may say, indeed Chet. A bit like a wheel, if you stand at the very edge, the ride is bumpy and the speed may really get you a bit dizzy. Caught in thoughts is rough. In sitting, we don t escape the wheel of Samsara, the wheel of rebirth, we don t reach out for an answer outside this wheel, it could be God, heaven, cosmic Buddhas, name it...
we sit ate the very centre of the wheel, and the very centre of this wheel is perfectly still, from there you can enjoy the whole show, the whole display of Samsara. From there, Samsara is perceived through Nirvana. This Samsara stuff is like Nirvana. Another very famous Buddhist verse will describe this as Mountains are mountains again, rivers rivers again, but not exactly the same as the one you saw the first time.

Taigu

Excellent description, IMHO! Who wants 'out'? Where would that even be?

Nirvana is just Samsara with the lights turned on!

Chet

That's a goodie!

And Samsara is just Nirvana with the lights turned on!

Thank you Chet, thank you Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

That's a goodie!

And Samsara is just Nirvana with the lights turned on!

Thank you Chet, thank you Taigu

What if the lights are always turned on?

Chet

[jcsuperstar]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

probably have a hard time getting sleep!

[prg5001]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

probably have a hard time getting sleep!

Maybe THATS why Buddha is called the Fully Awakened One...

Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

Cheers,

Paul

[Shogen]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

Jundo Roshi
Thank you for this teaching. Like having my head inside the ringing bell.
gassho Zak

[Shohei]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

Wow great discussion and ideas here! I take with out giving, so many thank yous to all!
Chet you blow my mind quite regularly - Thanks for keeping it blown open

Gassho, Shohei

[Jinho]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

Part of the misconception, I think, comes from mixing up what we are doing with the Rinzai approach (not to criticize that, it is just different), which leads you to think you are supposed to sit around on your Zafu for ages ... maybe chewing on a Koan or something ... and then EUREKA, after years and years, everything just falls into place. The skies open and the angels sing.
Gassho, Jundo

Hi Jundo,

I am concerned that phrases like "skies opening, angels sing" and "chewing on a koan" may cause people to have misconceptions about what koan study actually is. I have in the past read many incorrect (and frankly demeaning if not overtly insulting) comments on Treeleaf regarding koan study. There is actually no one on the list who has done koan study, i.e., "passed" several koans and yet many people seem to believe they know what the experience is about. It is very odd. The situation is really quite analogous to feminism being defined and dismissed as "female persons with a penchant for burning undergarments".

thank you for your time,
rowan

[CharlesC]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

Hi Rowan: I read Jundo's post as a description of the misconceptions that someone like me might have about zazen, which includes misconceptions about rinzai practice, and not Jundo's opinion of rinzai. Please elucidate. I for one am interested in what koan study involves.

:Charles

[Jinho]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

Hi Rowan: I read Jundo's post as a description of the misconceptions that someone like me might have about zazen, which includes misconceptions about rinzai practice, and not Jundo's opinion of rinzai. Please elucidate. I for one am interested in what koan study involves.

:Charles

Hi Charles,

This message is just a place holder, I will get back to you in a couple of days.! Until then, if you have a copy of the Mumonkan or Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, you can read Mumon's description of koan practice in his intro to the first koan "Joshu's Mu".

My comment is based on many comments that have been posted on Treeleaf by many people in the past. I am happy if I have misinterpreted Jundo's comment.

thank you for yoru time,
rowan
who must go sit now.

[Bansho]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

Hi Rowan,

I think it is better and more ethical if no one here at Treeleaf mentions rinzai practice or koan study since no one here has done it.

I'd be very careful about making presuppositions about anything which those at Treeleaf have or haven't done. We're all here to learn from one another, and I don't see why it should be 'better and more ethical' to prohibit such discussions from the outset. Just speaking for myself, I haven't practiced koan introspection in a systematic fashion under the guidance of a teacher, as is done in the Rinzai tradition. I have, however, been turned inside out and slapped in the face by many koans, as they appear in the Mumonkan, Hekiganroku, Denkoroku, Shoyoroku, Mana Shobogenzo and Kana Shobogenzo, just to name those which immediately spring to mind. Whether your definition of 'koan study' applies here or not is academic. I think that as a means of deepening our understanding and overcoming any misconceptions or prejudices regarding koans which some may have (although I'm not certain that this applies to anyone here) we should discuss koans at Treeleaf more rather than less. Just my opinion.

Gassho
Bansho

[Jinho]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

Hi Rowan,

I think it is better and more ethical if no one here at Treeleaf mentions rinzai practice or koan study since no one here has done it.

I'd be very careful about making presuppositions about anything which those at Treeleaf have or haven't done. We're all here to learn from one another, and I don't see why it should be 'better and more ethical' to prohibit such discussions from the outset. Just speaking for myself, I haven't practiced koan introspection in a systematic fashion under the guidance of a teacher, as is done in the Rinzai tradition. I have, however, been turned inside out and slapped in the face by many koans, as they appear in the Mumonkan, Hekiganroku, Denkoroku, Shoyoroku, Mana Shobogenzo and Kana Shobogenzo, just to name those which immediately spring to mind. Whether your definition of 'koan study' applies here or not is academic. I think that as a means of deepening our understanding and overcoming any misconceptions or prejudices regarding koans which some may have (although I'm not certain that this applies to anyone here) we should discuss koans at Treeleaf more rather than less. Just my opinion.

Gassho
Bansho

thank you for your note. I think I was unclear. There have been many derogatory comments made about the practice of what I shall call "formal" koan study, that is, concentrating on a koan during one's zazen meditation. The other part of formal koan study is to have formal meetings with a zen teacher who has been through the formal koan study process and has been certified (received Inka) from a teacher who has done so, etc. This is a specialized study in the same way that shotokan karate is a specialized study, and yoga is more than a random series of stretches.

And I certainly would not wish to discourage the discussions of koans, only the derogatory and misinformed remarks about the PRACTICE of koan study (how it is done in what, again, I will refer to as "formal koan study" which is certainly not the best term for it, but I hope people will know what I am referring to?)

We should start a topic on people's favorite koans, koan collections!

thank you for your time,
rowan

[Jundo]

Re: Non-Self Fulfilling Prophesy

Part of the misconception, I think, comes from mixing up what we are doing with the Rinzai approach (not to criticize that, it is just different), which leads you to think you are supposed to sit around on your Zafu for ages ... maybe chewing on a Koan or something ... and then EUREKA, after years and years, everything just falls into place. The skies open and the angels sing.
Gassho, Jundo

Hi Jundo,

I am concerned that phrases like "skies opening, angels sing" and "chewing on a koan" may cause people to have misconceptions about what koan study actually is. I have in the past read many incorrect (and frankly demeaning if not overtly insulting) comments on Treeleaf regarding koan study. There is actually no one on the list who has done koan study, i.e., "passed" several koans and yet many people seem to believe they know what the experience is about. It is very odd. The situation is really quite analogous to feminism being defined and dismissed as "female persons with a penchant for burning undergarments".

thank you for your time,
rowan

Hi Rowan,

But sometimes the heavens do open and the angels do sing!

I did not mean that as a demeaning comment on Koan Zazen, only as a caution for folks who might be seeking such mind blowing experiences as the objective of Zazen. "Kensho" or "enlightenment" or whatever you want to call it come in all manner of flavors and spices, big and small. Sometimes the "answer" to a Koan is "just wash your bowls".

Please do elucidate on Koan Practice as you feel would help people understand. We don't practice Koan Zazen around here (except in the sense that every moment is a Koan, and Zazen the Koan realized), but we do work with Koans. Dogen loved Koans, collected traditional Koans, Shobogenzo is wall to wall classic Koans ... we approach Koans with Zazen-mind, although we do not sit with a particular Koan during Zazen in Shikantaza.

I do know that "Koan/Kan'na Zazen" comes in several flavors too. There are some teachers who seem to push hard for "BIG KENSHO" as the key to Zazen. (Someone today mentioned a Japanese Rinzai teacher named Shin'ichi Hisamatsu, and I might put him in that category ... BIG PUSH for the BIG KENSHO). That may be great for some folks, and some personality types who need that. The book "Three Pillars of Zen" can also leave folks with the impression that that is what Zen practice is always about. Today, the subject came up with someone, and I happened to write this:

We find fireworks in the ordinary. In fact, we rather yawn at experiences like you describe in your other mail, like a trip to the Grand Canyon (nice place to visit, buy a post card, can't live there) and talk about just embracing day to day life as it is. Not that we do not value such experiences, but value walking the dog or making toast as much.

There is no self. But the dog needs to be walked. :-P

Anyway, no, I did not mean to imply that all Koan Zazen is about that, or like that (actually, I did not mention anything about Koans or Koan Zazen in the post). And, anyway, sometimes the angels do sing!

Gassho, Jundo