Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

[Tb]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

Hi.

wasn't there a story in the sandman series about the dreaming cities?
I wonder what happens if they ever wake up...

Another twist is "the city that never sleeps"...

Mtfbwy
Tb

[humblepie]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

Hi all. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone here for joining in this discussion. Jundo, a HUGE thank you for starting it. Even though I went off on a temporary scientific tangent and threw in a little quirky humor (or is it "quarky?" Sub-atomic silliness...), this topic has helped me out tremendously...especially regarding the eventual passing of my father.

I'm not really the type who gravitates to long explanations. In fact, throughout all these posts, the one that stuck out in mind the most was from Clyde.

I rather like this, "Where does your fist go when you open your hand?"

clyde


p.s: I think I first heard this from Alan Watts.

Of course, that answer won't work with our children when they ask the BIG question, but it works for me. I'm much more at peace with the situation now.

Better yet, it's more a matter of trust. Thank you again, everyone.

Gassho,
Dave

[Borsuk]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

Hi all! Merry Sunday

Thanks for tackling this big question, Jundo, and for doing so with honesty.

I guess it's not so important after all. A more pressing question to me right now is, 'What am I?' or 'What is this?' or perhaps, 'What am I doing here?' I think if you feel OK about these questions then you feel OK about the life after death question too, and also understand the question!

So, life after death... What is it that was born? and what is it that dies? It seems pretty obvious what happens to the physcial body. Like all living organisms its life expands and then contracts until it finally perishes and isn't able to be a vehicle for life anymore. The brain is of course part of the body so if the brain creates then mind then the mind must disintergrate too. But consciousness? Does the brain produce that? Was consciousness ever really born?

And what about all our mental energies, thoughts, desires, feelings and so on that we experience during life? Are they reborn and passed on to another living organism or do they simply intermingle with the whole... the whole ocean that is constantly manifesting forms like human bodies?

These questions are not necessarilly for answering. I'm just throwing them out there as questions.

Very many people have given accounts of past life visions and experiences. I don't think they can all be crazy and delusional or liars. There must be something to it but I'm not sure whether these people are actually seeing their past lives or if it's more a case of something like collective memory. They may be seeing some past human lives and perhaps the sense of I and my past life is present because our true sense of I, which doesn't come from the body-mind, is one and the same in all human beings... Just a thought.

Some people also claim to have memories of the intermediate state after death and before rebirth.

As I indicated above, I'm not sure if I believe in a direct rebirth from one being into another, or if it's more that after death the drop returns to the river and intermingles with it again, and it's the river that then manifests itself as the myriad drops.

Well, that's my two cents.

Gassho,
David

[AlanLa]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

Skimmed all that karma discussion above...
karma as Indra's net seems a simple way to think of it.
But that's no fun, so carry on.............

[AlanLa]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

Oh yeah, that what happens when we die question.. sorry, I got distracted.

Studs Terkel wrote a whole book about death where he interviews all sorts of people about it, their views and experiences with it, etc. (Will the Circle be Unbroken) I am reading it now. Fascinating read, lots of great and moving stories, but everyone seems to agree that the whole point is:
1. death is part of life
2. we don't know what happens when we die
3. so best to live life

Sounds familiar, huh.
Studs was a buddha.

[disastermouse]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

No. As I've stated previously, societies exhibit patterns of behavior, but only individuals can be said to act based upon their own will.

When you examine your internal experience, at what point do your rather random thoughts and conditioned patterns of thought become an 'individual will'?

[jrh001]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

Jundo June 20, 2009 9:05 AM

I must also add that a lost son is reborn in traditional Buddhist view. How or when ... we cannot say for sure. Perhaps he is reborn as all that will someday come. But a lost son is reborn.

Gassho, Jundo

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2009/06/master-stone.html#comments

Hi,

(I wanted to ask about this response on beliefnet and, since it's relevant to this thread, have posted here. Also, since the original comment on beliefnet was a very personal one, it didn't seem appropriate to discuss it there).

Sometimes it seems that the zen analysis that nothing dies because nothing is born offers little comfort. It feels like some kind of semantic device - at least at the "unenlightened" level that many of us operate on most of the time.

I think that the traditional Buddhist view (that a lost son is reborn) is more comforting and hopeful. Jundo, is that why you added the extra comment?

gassho,

JohnH

[Jundo]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

Sometimes it seems that the zen analysis that nothing dies because nothing is born offers little comfort. It feels like some kind of semantic device - at least at the "unenlightened" level that many of us operate on most of the time.

I think that the traditional Buddhist view (that a lost son is reborn) is more comforting and hopeful. Jundo, is that why you added the extra comment?

gassho,

JohnH

Hi John,

BE WARNED: THIS TURNED INTO A LONG POST

A very very welcome question. No, I said that to the father who lost his son because I truly believe it.

I need you to really hear me out on this before coming to any conclusions about what I will say. What I am about to write may shake some folks' image of Jundo as this very 'down to earth' guy.

One of the reasons this place is called "treeleaf" is because of an "insight" that came through years of this practice on rebirth (yes, Jinho, insights are important in this practice ). It is an insight very common to people who engage long enough in Zen practice and Buddhism in general, not unique to me. However, this allowed me to taste our little "selfs" as much like the single leaves of a tree which ... though each a leaf apparently separate and individual ... are really just the tree itself in the most radical sense (meaning that they are not merely 'parts of the tree', but are the tree itself). Leaves come and go with the seasons, but the tree remains.

What is more, because each leaf is just the tree in its most radical meaning ... each leaf (you and I) are radically each other in the most intimate sense. Yes, every leaf born of the tree (although also separate and distinct) is, in that sense at least, our rebirth and the rebirth of each other.

So, you see, that whole "Zen is 'bout 'Being One With The Universe'" cliche is not a cliche, 8) and we do experience this at moments on the long mountain hike. There are truly aspects to our Zen practice whereby ... looking at the moon and stars in the sky ... one is looking at a mirror, until only the mirror remains.

Due to the foregoing, I no longer fear death (at least, some of me no longer fears death ... the part of me that is still a white knuckle flier fears death :shock: ) because losing this body is not much different from a single hair falling out of my old beard ... another hair is bound to grow in. So, when I told that father that his son would return ... I meant it through and through. (I am not much for overly mechanical images of rebirth and reincarnation, as sometimes professed in Tibetan Buddhism, for example. But I do believe in rebirth).

I wrote a book about this a few years ago ... rarely show it to folks, will someday. But it is filled with little images to convey this. One is the "airplane" story I told in the first post in this thread, which I told to my friend Danny who was soon to die of cancer. I am going to BOLDFACE a couple of sentences in there for emphasis ....

How can I put this? Perhaps, in the Zen perspective, life is like being born ... for some mysterious reason ... in a certain seat on a trans-Pacific flight (I thought the analogy appropriate, given how much time we both spend crossing the Pacific to Japan). We are not quite sure how we got here on this flight, who paid for the ticket, the destination ... and certainly, we are not quite sure who is in the cockpit or how the plane got made. However, something has seemingly gone to a lot of trouble to put us on this plane (earthly plane? har har). And, the movie is not bad (sometimes comedy sometimes tears), the champagne is cold, and the view out the window spectacular. Sure, some of the other passengers are hard to bear (often fighting amongst themselves), not everything is to our liking, and sometimes it downright is unpleasant. But the 747 seems to be moving along on its own power. So, nothing to do but enjoy the ride.

But there is more to it than that ...

For, in our perspective, we can see that we are all connected. I don't mean that we see some loose, indirect connection we all have. It is precisely that we see that the airplane and all the other passengers, the motor, the wings, movie and all the seats, and the guy in the cockpit are all part of you too, or are really you, or you are them ... or, better put, you, Danny, are the plane ... or even better put, there is just the flying).

...

And it sure seems like something went to a lot of trouble to make something as elaborate as a plane. A great mathematician and physicist [Fred Hoyle] once said ...

"The chance that higher [sentient] life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein... I am at a loss to understand biologists' widespread compulsion to deny what seems to me to be obvious." ("Hoyle on Evolution," Nature, Vol. 294, 12 November 1981, p. 105.)

The fact [I am writing a book on this] that so many a priori conditions were required to set our 747-world just right in order for us to share this e-mail leads me to conclude that our appearance on this plane is not mere happenstance, and the trip not without purpose (although I do not clearly know the nature of nature's purpose).

So, have a good flight, even with the turbulence and bad food. It's all part of the flying and we are not really at the controls.

Some Buddhists might also add that you are working through what needs to be worked through (karma and all that). I, personally, don't know about that, but it could be I suppose. Certainly, it is one explanation for how you ended up as "Danny," and not as some piece of luggage, coffee cup, headrest, other passenger or ... seemingly much, much more likely ... nothing at all. I can attest that this "Danny" is certainly one of a kind. (If I may continue with the silly plane analogy), why did you end up in seat 37D, and not some other seat, or in the baggage compartment, and why on the darn plane at all?? Maybe there is no reason at all, maybe it was an assigned seat.

Oh, and embracing the whole things means that it is okay to be pissed off, disappointed, etc., sometimes at being sick. That's what human beings do at times when we have been diverted, seemingly, from where we wanted the plane to go.


Your friend, Jundo ... quite often, a white knuckle flier

I do not know all the reasons why you and I popped up alive in this universe when, seemingly, even a small change of conditions would have rendered some other outcome. One small change in evolution's winding road, for example ... a left turn in place of a right ... and you and I would never have been born, let alone if our great grandparents had never met and fallen in love. But, I suppose, my simplistic belief is that "if the ridiculously ridiculous happened once to you and me, it is likely that the dice were loaded in some way!") And if the dice were loaded once, they might be loaded next time too.

Below, I am going to post a couple of things that I have only once before posted here. It is my image of the deep intimacy of "leaf" and "tree" (or "passenger" and "plane" if you prefer) ... anyway, you and me and from whence we came ...

I have a manuscript kicking around here that I've meant to get back to and finish someday. In it I try, through some poetic images and various 'thought experiments', to get folks to see some of this. Humor me on some of these, as I was just trying something creative here. What I have discovered over the years, in getting folks to look at some of these, is that some folks can see the image and some can't ... not unlike the way some folks cannot see those "3-D Images" which they publish in the newspaper sometimes, or the famous "Old Lady/Young Lady" optical illision:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/YoungGirl- ... usion.html

There are now some aspects of the following I would change if writing this today, such as the emphasis on the word "One", which can be misleading (for example, being "at one" with reality does not necessarily mean that all of reality is "one" single thing. That is why Buddhist philosophers often use such phrases as "not one, not two"). Something else I might change is the feel that I am necessarily talking about some "universal consciousness". A much younger me wrote this, so I would not do it just the same way.

Work on through it to the "YOU/I" image in the third excerpt. Anyway, here goes "NOTHING"!

We think of ourselves as separate individuals born into a universe, independent bodies calling a world our home. Like inhabitants of a house, we feel that the universe is where we live, not what we are. We see the world as but the stage for our dance of life, not as the fusion unbroken of dancer, stage and dance. In our limited way, although we may be aware of scattered connections between our individual ‘self’ and all that surrounds us, we perceive no more than chance, isolated relationships among separate things and beings. We see that humans live in the world, but not that humans and the world are wholly One, a single entity undivided.


We feel as dancers in a dance, across a stage we run,

each dancer dancing solo, our connection nearly none.

But when our steps are flowing, as leaves in wind a’frenzy spun,

it’s not hard to see that dancers, stage and dance are truly One.


Our separation is a perspective, but offers no more than a confined viewpoint on reality. Far from being the only vision we should hold to – an encompassing perspective is simultaneously true and useful. In this tale, I propose that we learn to see ourselves ….


as this universe itself,
as much as the lonely leaf is part of its parent tree,
and thereby -is- the tree.


Picture in your mind a single tree leaf growing from a tree. Is the fragile leaf a separate thing, that which we call a “leaf”? Or is it instead the tree itself?

It is possible to view the single leaf as both “leaf” and “tree,” one and the other. Certainly, a tree is but its roots, trunk, branches and leaves. Strip away, one and all, root, trunk, branch and leaf, and there shall be no tree at all. Nothing remains.

Yet the true key to union is the human beholder, for when the mind steps back, no longer focuses on the leaf, ceases to isolate its separate form, when we see nothing but the whole and forget about the part ….. all that we see is the tree. The leaf is absorbed into the tree, vanishes like a ladleful of water poured into a sea, there perhaps - but not there. Thus, each leaf is a separate life, unique. Simultaneously, it is the tree itself. A human being may, too, forget her separate self, cease to isolate identity from the whole, pour her being into that sea. We human beings are, likewise, each one separate and unique. Simultaneously, we are but this universe in its expression.

The leaf is part of the Tree, without one no other.

For a tree must have its leaves to be,

and no leaf is born apart from tree.

Yet root, trunk, branch, leaf …..

they are not mere parts of their Tree -

They are the Tree, the One, inseparable.

For if no root, trunk, branch and leaf,

what Tree would be at all?

If no root and trunk and branch below,

where would the frail leaf grow?

We are the universe.


* * *

Step back!

Seeing beyond the particular- thus All becomes clear.

Single brushstrokes unnoticed, and a painting beheld,

much as the Ocean appears by absorbing each drop.

It is the eye’s focus, with expansive vision,

for our thoughts set life’s boundaries, shapes and forms.

When leaf is forgotten, a Tree is there;

unseeing of sand grains, wide desert found;

overlooking the many, the One comes in view…..

Mankind, your Self is, as self drifts from mind.


Dogen wrote in the Genjo Koan….


To know the Self is to forget the self…..


When the facet-partial is not forefront in thought, the whole-encompassing is first seen. The clouds of atoms which assemble as a tree are (in daily life) invisible to our eyes, and in this way before us - the total tree appears. Should we magnify our vision to the trillion, trillion atoms, the tree must vanish from our sight. Seeing the wondrous tree’s beauty, we rarely bring to mind its constituent elements, only doing so when summoned to our notice (perhaps as the poet draws our inner eye there).

From one perspective, there is only the tree - the atoms forgotten, swallowed whole by the Whole. From another perspective, there are only atoms, for the tree (as all matter) is nothing but atoms - no tree truly there at all. From still another, just as valid as an insight, both the tree and tree’s atoms are there all along (in fact, one is the other). But the more one is seen, the harder to see the other.

Mankind, it is the same for you, each perspective true in its way, for you are an element of the Tree, you are an aspect of the greater reality of Being …..


Mankind, though you go about this daily life

thinking but of your little self,

take a chance!

Lose your ‘self’ for a moment,

thereby to find your ‘Self.’

Oh, the mind plays games of separation!


Sometimes, in the stillness by the empty window - I sit in formal meditation. Perfect is the moment. The rain stops, the clouds depart, but the eaves drip each single drop. Moonlight floods my room. I recall the words of Ikkyu ….


Single moon
Bright and clear
In this unclouded sky …..
Yet somehow we stumble
In the worldly darkness


It is by such state that the hard borders of my body and being come to soften. My self is real, yet too is self gone. Why are we so quick to think that we are what is contained in the margins and restrictions where flesh meets the air, where our feet touch the ground and head will reach no higher? Is my true being but my hand, or too whatever a hand may grasp? Just these eyes, or any vista that these eyes might see? My mind, or whatever the mind might know, feel? The distant hills, the farthest star, are no less “me” than the tip of my tongue.

And it is not just into space that my being expands, but into time. For I am no more constrained by the false boundaries of birth and death than I can be prisoner in an unlocked room. If the world is but me, and the world has been for eons, then I have been for eons. If the universe is but me, and has always been, then I have always been. Though the single leaf may grow, soon to fade and disappear, still the Tree goes on …..

Leaves come and go,

Only the Tree remains …..

For all that grows there,

Only the Tree …..

As a first step, it is important to understand that the statement “we are the universe” is meant in a strict sense. It does not mean that we are but isolatable parts of the universe, like autonomous beings who are members of a social club or citizens of a nation. Nor is the point mere “solipsism,” the idea that, for example, you (the reader) are the one and only being that exists in the entire universe, and thus everything else in the universe except for you (but including, unfortunately for me, this writer!) is unreal.


What does it mean to say “the leaf is the Tree?”

Does it mean that there is no Tree,

only leaves, branch, trunk and roots united, a “Society of Tree?”

Does it mean that there is only a single leaf that’s true,

with all the other leaves, the branches, trunk and roots but its dream?

Nothing of the sort!

For there is leaf, it’s sister leaves, each branch, trunk and root ….

Yet, there is only the Tree.


What is meant has a very different meaning from some “club of parts” or from “solipsism,” made clear in the following example:

Let us suppose that your human body were the whole universe. (As I do not know the reader’s actual name, I will take the liberty of calling you “Albert.”) What we call our universe, with all it contains, is contained within Albert’s body, and nothing exists outside that body. I suppose that in such case, in place of black holes and planets and such, the universe then consists of the various bodily insides, as well as the hands, the feet and all the rest. Your body is perhaps billions of years old. As with the real universe, the ‘Albert’s body’ universe is constituted of a multitude of parts, represented by the billions and billions of tiny, vibrant cells which make your body.

One wondrous day, some of the very smallest cells of Albert’s left foot become conscious and intelligent, just as we human beings did in an isolated corner of the real universe. After some millions of years of further development (and not knowing that they are part of you), those cells begin to philosophize, to ask themselves “who are we?” and “why are we here?”

It is at this point that Eastern philosophers may offer again that a ‘tautology’ need not be a “begging of the question,” but can be an answer complete and sufficient unto itself, an answer to which nothing more can or should be added. Accordingly, if a philosophically inclined speck of Albert’s instep were to make inquiry regarding the foregoing questions, “who am I” and “why am I here,” the best answers for it might be just as follows:


You are your bit of Albert (particularly, his graceful foot).

You are here as your bit of Albert.

Go to it!


In equivalent fashion, when I (Jundo Cohen) ask myself “who am I?” and “why am I here?” in the real universe, the best answers for me may be simply:


You are the universe’s Jundo Cohen.

You are here as the universe’s Jundo Cohen.

Go to it!



It is quite satisfying to my heart as an answer, letting me know my very specific, most unique place in reality and what I am to do in it: I am me, and I am to lead my own life as it goes, as I lead it. Enough said. Also, the answers are unchanged whether or not Albert is currently asleep, in deepest coma or completely without intelligence or awareness whatsoever (just as we cannot be sure for now that the real universe has some higher intelligence or grand awareness to it). We are still our unique bit nonetheless, even if Albert is as dull and dormant as a tree.

And just as a tiny bit of Albert’s heel is thereby just Albert, the one making possible the other, the one being the other, so am I no less

….. just this universe.

So for all of us, so for you, as you must be the only you of this universe, doing as you do, thereby this universe in its unique expression. Go to it!

Suppose “I” were really everyone and everything in the universe, and everyone and everything in the universe were really “another I” (just as much as “I” am “I”). Suppose the sensation of my being a separate and independent “I” from everyone and everything else in the universe were really the illusion. Then, “I” would inhabit my body because “I” inhabit every body. “I” exist in the universe because any person (let alone “thing”) which exists in the universe is “I” as much as “I” (Jundo) am “I.”

Though it may sound confusing at first impression, I think it can be described simply.

But before I do describe my idea, it is important to emphasize certain points: My proposal is not what is often called “solipsism,” the idea that “I” am the only being that exists in the entire universe, and that everything else in the universe except for ‘me’ is unreal. On the contrary, I believe that everything is quite real, quite distinct one from the other. Nor do I mean that “you” and “I” simply are linked together in a common being, like cosmic siamese twins (interesting enough thought as that is).

Instead, my concept is that there is not one bit of separation or distinction between you and I whatsoever in the most radical sense, and further, that neither you nor I are quite what we think we are. In fact, you are YOU/I, and I am YOU/I, i.e., both the I/OTHER. Thus you and I had to exist, because everything is, was and shall be YOU/I. Every human being alive wakes up in the morning and says of himself or herself, "I am YOU/I. How did I get here?" I think the idea not illogical with the right perspective.

The reason that this perspective is not obvious to most people may be because the human mind plays tricks of smoke and mirrors, leading us to think of ourselves as separate, autonomous entities. I wish now to try to clear away some of the smoke, and show how the magician might perform the illusion of separateness. Of course, modern physics has already introduced the basic concept by demonstrating that your perception of “you,” your friends, your house and your car as being physically distinct entities is untrue. In fact, you, your friends, your house and your car (and all things in the universe) form a single, unbroken continuum of matter/energy. There is simply no clear place where you end and the chair you are sitting in begins, except as intersecting wave patterns on the continuum. Thus, though the perspectives of science and the perspective of Buddhism should not be taken as the same, my assertions may have modern science on their side (at least, on the sub-atomic level).

To see how the illusion works, please picture me in two ways, both “Jundo.” The first Jundo, I will call “small jundo” (If you wish, dear reader, please pretend that I am you, and substitute your own name in the example). This “small jundo” is my normal, day-to-day self, with its own sensation of separate identity. It is the “Jundo” that gets up in the morning in his apparently separate house, goes to his job in his apparently separate car, and has little sensation of being part of a continuum with the world around him.

However, the other aspect of Jundo I will call “BIG JUNDO” (Again, please substitute your own name if you wish). “BIG JUNDO” is the continuum, and might also be called one’s “True Self.” To understand the concept, it may help to picture “BIG JUNDO” as being the single, undivided “stuff” of which all the individual “things” of the universe are made (equivalent to our ‘Tree’). For simplicity, try to picture “BIG JUNDO” as a vast sea of clay perhaps, or as the body of the Tree. All the individual “things” of the universe are made of “BIG JUNDO,” are made out of small pieces of that clay (are leaves, fruits and flowers of our Tree).

The key is this: Each and every one of the “things” made out of the clay or of the Tree (BIG JUNDO) is itself a “small jundo.” You and I are each a “small jundo.” My house is a “small jundo” and my car is another “small jundo.” For purposes of keeping them separate, let me assign arbitrary numbers to each one: e.g., You are “small jundo 1,” I am “small jundo 2,” my car is “small jundo 3,” and my house is “small jundo 4.” In fact, every individual “thing” in the universe is a “small jundo,” and could be assigned a number.

Now we come to the point where the human brain starts to play its tricks. Of course (as far as I know) my house and my car do not “think,” and thus do not think about themselves existing as “Jundo,” or in any other way. However, each human being’s brain thinks. Thus, “small jundo 1” (you) wakes up every day and thinks “I am Jundo” (meaning, that you are thinking that you exist as “you”). As well, “small jundo 2” (me) wakes up every day and thinks “I am Jundo” (meaning, that I am thinking that I exist as “me”). In fact, we each think of ourselves as the one and only “Jundo,” and that all the other people and things in the world are NOT “Jundo.” We each think we are fully individual and separate, and are blind to the fact that we are BOTH “Jundo” from a different perspective (that we are both YOU/I, the I/OTHER, both the Tree). We thus both think, “How did I (meaning “Jundo”) come to inhabit my particular physical body,” because we do not see that every person in the world would have had to have been “Jundo.” We fail to see that “small jundo 2” (me) is thinking and feeling that I am “the only Jundo” as much as “small jundo 1” (you) are thinking that you are “the only Jundo.” Each singular leaf of the “Jundo” Tree thinks itself the one and only “Jundo” leaf, unique and separate, yet each is no more than the “Jundo” Tree.

At this point, some readers may raise an objection: They might say, “Although you may be “Jundo,” my name is “Francesco.” You are short and round and live in Tokyo, I am tall and skinny and live in Venice. What do you mean that we are both the same and both named ‘Jundo’?”

The answer is that I am not talking about how we each appear on the surface, or who we think we are, our personal life histories or day-to-day names and selves. That is all just the “small jundo” self, the particular leaf with its unique position in the sun, but an expression of the encompassing Tree.

This perspective may become clearer by a further example: Imagine that the universe were a vast airplane in which an “I” (Jundo) is sitting in each and every seat. One “Jundo” starts to wonder how he came to be in seat 27D (his particular life), and not in some other seat (or, how he came to be on the plane at all). The answer is that “Jundo” is in every seat, even if passenger 27D does not feel it so. In fact, the whole plane is likely “Jundo,” and each wing, wheel and motor is “Jundo.” Also, since the airplane represents the entire universe, there is nowhere outside the airplane, and thus no place for Jundo to be but on that plane. Thereby, if there is a certain passenger on the plane, that passenger must be a “Jundo.” However, because each passenger is sitting in a separate seat, with his or her own view of the cabin or out a window, each sees life from quite a unique perspective (i.e., each has his or her particular, individual life, seen out of his or her own eyes).

How does the brain play the trick of causing us to perceive only our “small jundo” self, and not our “BIG JUNDO” Self? It is an illusion, possibly much like one’s being seated in a multi-screen cinema, each screen showing what appears to the viewer to be a very distinct image. Depending on the angle (or the particular life), each view appears quite different from all the others. However, the viewer cannot see that each “small jundo” image is but light on a blank screen emanating from a single, hidden “BIG JUNDO” projector, each image but the cast light refracted differently, at different angles and perspectives, and thus looking most distinct. As well, the viewer cannot see all the other screens of the theatre, only his or her own. Thus, the leaf experiences its leaf-ness, not easily the total being of the Tree. It is much the reverse trick as experienced in the “Hall of Mirrors” of the carnival funhouse …… You see yourself reflected by the thousands, tens-of-thousands, endlessly to the horizons, each image slightly distinct …… Which is the “real” you?

You may wish to imagine another situation, that, due to a mysterious twist of genetic latency, your single, little head suddenly sprouted a second, fully distinct brain, one brain now controlling your left eye and the left side of your body, the other the right. Although from the outside you still appear a fairly normal person, in fact each half of your body is under a fully separate consciousness, conjoined twins within. Each eye and hand sees and feels the world in a slightly distinct manner, distinct from the experiences and awareness of the other half of your body, whereby each of your two minds undergoes its own experiences, holds it own subjective beliefs and personal judgments. Now, imagine that this magical body of yours began to sprout additional brains by the billions, each with its own eye and independent hand, each brain representing one of the untold sentient lives that exist on this planet which is our home. Would we then be speaking of but one creature or a world of creatures? Which is the real “you?”

...

And that (perhaps) is the story of how “you” got to be “you,” and “I” got to be “I,” and how we are different, and how we are the same.

[Brock]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII

When I first heard the wave in the ocean metaphor, it quite literally changed my perspective on life. I read it in a book and it settled in with me cozily and things have not looked or seemed the same since. It's hard to describe just how radically this one little thing changed my perspective.

Thanks again, Jundo. You have an amazing ability to convey thoughts and images and we're lucky to be in a position to read your words.

Incidentally, this is a very interesting and, for me, incredibly timely thread. A friend of mine who passes through town when she can was just through town. We had lunch at the usual spot. She's a whirlwind of inquisitiveness and inspiration.

She was on her way to the Mind-Life Institue conference (a collaborative deal between some Buddhists and western scientists) and, from there, Dharamsala. She is a really serious student of rebirth and many related issues. We've had a few interesting discussions around the topic.

What I found for the first time since knowing her was that it wasn't anywhere near as interesting as the topic had been. I simply don't have that much interest in knowing about my death or my rebirth or anything like that. I was really surprised to find this out about myself. Until we started talking about it, I hadn't realized that this was the case.

[Sorry for making another post about "ME." Just a passing thought that turned into a little more.]

[Seiryu]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

On this topic of rebirth, I am reminded of something Brad Warner had written in his book "Hardcore zen" and I think it's a good attidtue to the whole rebirth thing.
"If you want to believe in reincarnation, you have to believe that this life, what you are living through right now, is the afterlife. You're missing out on the afterlife you looked forward to in your last existence by worrying about your next life. This is what happens after you die. Take a look." ~Brad Warner

Gassho

Rafael

[Jundo]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

Thank you Rafael, thank you Brad (I am going to steel that brilliant quote), thank you Chugai ...

In all events, this life, this moment, is where it all comes down to: our acts, words and thoughts here and now ... the heavens and hells we start to build in our life and others' lives (not two) here and now ...

Nine Bows, Jundo

[Seiryu]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

I was thinking about this and I feel Life are Death questions stem from a primal and instinctive fear we have of death. No one really wants to die, the idea of me becoming nothing is scary but there is a quote from Richard Dawkins about this which I really enjoyed:

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here."

Life after Death? who knows...who cares...I am here...or better yet...something is here. What more can we want?
We come with nothing, and are generously allowed usage of a body and a mind. Then, we return it.
But that does not mean we return into nothing...no, we just continue as something else. a memory, an action that reverberates through time and space. Master Dogen may be dead, but his actions still affect us today...how can one say he no longer exist? My great great great(times ten great) may be dead, but I would not be here if it wasn't for their actions...they are not dead...I live on as them...we all live on based upon the actions of the past. there is no separation between us and them.

“Man does not weave this web of life. He is merely a strand of it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.” (Chief Seattle)

Gassho

Rafael/Seiry?

[Jundo]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

I was thinking about this and I feel Life are Death questions stem from a primal and instinctive fear we have of death. No one really wants to die, the idea of me becoming nothing is scary but there is a quote from Richard Dawkins about this which I really enjoyed:

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here."

Life after Death? who knows...who cares...I am here...or better yet...something is here. What more can we want?
We come with nothing, and are generously allowed usage of a body and a mind. Then, we return it.
But that does not mean we return into nothing...no, we just continue as something else. a memory, an action that reverberates through time and space. Master Dogen may be dead, but his actions still affect us today...how can one say he no longer exist? My great great great(times ten great) may be dead, but I would not be here if it wasn't for their actions...they are not dead...I live on as them...we all live on based upon the actions of the past. there is no separation between us and them.

“Man does not weave this web of life. He is merely a strand of it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.” (Chief Seattle)

Gassho

Rafael/Seiry?

The problem with Richard Dawkins is that he thinks he was born in the first place.

Gassho, J

[jrh001]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

.... he thinks he was born in the first place.
Gassho, J

Wasn't he born? What would his mum say?

JohnH (still mystified by this topic)

[Jundo]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

.... he thinks he was born in the first place.
Gassho, J

Wasn't he born? What would his mum say?

JohnH (still mystified by this topic)

Of course he was born, and so was his mum! Certainly.

Except that he wasn't, and never was. Basic Buddhism 101. That's his Original Face before even his Mum and Dad were born.

Also, I think that Richard Dawkins (and Charles Darwin too) are not wrong, yet neither do they offer a necessarily complete and comprehensive explanation of how you, me, Darwin, Dawkins and Dawkin's mom happened to pop up here in the middle of time and space despite all the seeming odds against it. That's something touched on briefly on another thread this week.

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Gassho, Jundo (for now)