Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

[Shokai]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

I've finally made my way through this two year old thread; Thank you Jundo for laying it out:

Jundo wrote:
"Remember that being "reborn" was never seen as a positive thing in Buddhism (despite how modern practitioners often want to "come back"), but was seen as something to be escaped!

I see that death is an illusion anyway. So, the whole question is moot from that perspective."

AND, RevR(the man from Baltimore) wrote:
"What we believe really has no bearing. If we cultivate wisdom, live ethically, and develop concentration right here and right now it has effects in this life and accumulates merit for a "better" rebirth. To an extent it's a win/ win situation."

With that in mind, I looked back and found a few years back that I myself came to the following conclusions:
"Nothing has power; except what you give it. Change is constant; by the time our neural activity provides us with comprehensible knowledge, the moment has passed.
Theoretically, we cannot live in the present. Consequently, we must strive to be in the RIGHT NOW as much as possible. The only way to achieve this is to relax and let it happen. Be aware of what you see; realizing that you give it meaning. Once you are willing to let go of that meaning, you will usually see its' real purpose."

And now I'm recalling the Basic Scientific Theory; " Energy is neither created nor destroyed"
The thing that keeps "going around" ( birth-death-rebirth cycle) is the energy; of which we are each a small packet. Conscious memory is not a part of this. Whereas, Karma is.

Finally, Doogie wrote;
"a world of suffering isn't a prison to be escaped. It is a school in which to learn. Seen thusly, being aware of one's student status isn't so important
In this way, no experience is a bad experience, as every experience holds the possibility for growth."

And Fugen might add, "It's all good."

Moment by Moment:
Remember; the answer to the question, "What's new ?" is always; "Everything !!".

Ah, emptiness

[Kaishin]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

Thank you, Jundo. I have always taken an "agnostic" stance with regard to the notion of rebirth, and an attitude of "it's of no concern" with respect to questions of the afterlife. For me, rebirth has always been the metaphoric notion of moment-to-moment birth/death/rebirth, whether on the cellular or spiritual level. Karma is similarly pragmatic, nothing more than negative or positive actions with a similar resulting effect. To use a trite example, hang out with drug addicts, and you'll likely become one.

Whenever I find myself navel gazing, pondering unanswerable questions, I think of the Buddha's often silent responses to such questions. Often I'm reminded also of Seung Sahn Sunim's famous directive, "Only go straight--don't know..."

I'm so grateful to have found a teacher who emphasizes the practice of the just-as-it-is, rather than theological games (which are admittedly hard not to entertain).

Endless thanks, Jundo. Back to the cushion...
--
Matt

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

I, in my overly simple view of things, have always thought that Karma is just intentional action, Vipaka is just the result. If one 'does' good Karma, then one is creating (in both self and others) the conditions for future good actions. If one 'does' bad Karma, one is creating the conditions for future bad actions.

Like the recent talk about anger in the Jukai forum: if one gives in to anger, identifies with anger, s/he subtly create the conditions for anger to arise in him/her. If, though, s/he recognizes anger for what it is, understands it, and moves on, conditions are created that give rise to greater understanding.

Yes, this has always been my view too. I've never tried to deny Karma, because it has always seemed obvious to me it exists. But I don't believe Karma has to be very mystical or magical. If one does good, maybe one plants a seed in someone else's mind, which doesn't give any immediate effect, but grows over time, is spread to others and bears fruit when you least expect it. And if you do bad, you may think you got away with it a few times, but it always seems to come back at you in the end. You reap what you saw - or Karma is a bitch. You still have a free choice, but you set yourself up for good or bad choices, actions, causes and effects.

Sometimes I've felt that Karma is the result of how much in harmony I am with myself and my nature. There are times when you have to make a decision and feel in your heart that one choice is right and the other is wrong. But for various reasons you still knowingly make the wrong choice. You can do this several times, because you have a free will, but sooner or later I feel myself dragged or tugged back onto the "right track" again, by the increasingly bad effects and disharmonious feeling from my past bad decisions and the wonderful feeling of being on a lucky streak, on top of the world and in harmony with yourself again, after you have started listening to your heart and making the right decisions.

Good is often hard to tell from evil and wrong is often mistaken for right, so sometimes this "Karmatic feedback" is the only way for me to learn to make better decisions in the future.

[Jundo]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

But Buddha says that karma cannot extend beyond one birth. It takes effect in the same birth itself. His "karma" is nothing but the principle of cause and effect. An example: A theft results in the arrest of the thief. The thief cannot escape his arrest and punishment. The arrest cannot wait until his next birth. In this way, effect follows the cause surely without fail in this birth itself, just as a cartwheel follows the steps of the horse.

Hi Chugai,

Oh, you know that I do not emphasize these teachings so much, or consider them of central import to my Practice (as the posting at the start of this thread lays out) ...

... But I am not so sure about this assertion of what the Buddha likely taught. It is usually said that some Karma comes home to roost in this life, some in the next, some in lives after that ...

Anyway, I have to go pick up my son at school now ... or there WILL BE CONSEQUENCES IN MY HOME! :?

Gassho, Jundo

[captkid]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

Having a love of mathematics, I wanted to comment on Mr. D’s comment. “The thing about Karma is this: I don't really see how the Buddhist belief in Karma is compatible with the possibility that the universe is random and unintended.”
This confusions stems from a misunderstanding of randomness, all random systems are not created equal. Most people view randomness through the lens mathematicians call “engineered randomness.” This is the randomness you get when you throw dice, flip coins or use random number generating programs. Engineered randomness is great for modelling the casino games in my home town of Vegas but falls short when modelling complex systems formed by the independent choices of “Agents.”
The most famous of these systems would be the Stock Market. Viewed from a distance, such as a stock chart, the market’s behaviour appears random but the system is not formed by chance, instead it is formed by the collective choices of all the investors that constitute the market. They don’t make choices by flipping coins, their decisions have clear intentions. The result is that when some traders have tried to make money by modelling market behaviour on engineered randomness they got whacked by what mathematicians call “the long tail of the dragon.”
For me this means that Karma is far from being at odds with the complex nature of the universe. Instead, it is the literal engine of its change and growth.

[Jiki22]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

action - reaction

nice (bit long) post, thank You

i go to work with a smile, i like what i do, every day,
and people arround me become happy to just seeing an other being happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdQnuqFlD7U&feature=related[/video]]

... re=related

[Shugen]

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

action - reaction

nice (bit long) post, thank You

i go to work with a smile, i like what i do, every day,
and people arround me become happy to just seeing an other being happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdQnuqFlD7U&feature=related[/video]]

... re=related

:-D

Ron

[Tosh]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

I've just about read all the posts in this interesting thread, and one of the reasons I'm looking at Zen is because of the extremely mechanical view of karma Tibetan Buddhism seems to have. If, for example, someone steals my wallet, that was explained to me that it was because I had stolen someone else's wallet in this or a previous life. It made no sense to me when I look at other examples of the tough stuff that happens to people; karma isn't some magical form of justice, in my opinion.

But karma does make sense to me in that I'm creating a constant stream of karma (positive, negative, or neutral) through my thoughts and actions (thoughts being 'mental actions') and I have the ability to create joy or suffering by them. And there is phenomena other than karma which can cause suffering (like tsunamis):

I've read this is an important, though not well known Sutta (for your interest):

Moliyasivaka Sutta
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/samyutta/sn36-21.php

"Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmins."

[Jundo]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

And there is phenomena other than karma which can cause suffering (like tsunamis):

I've read this is an important, though not well known Sutta (for your interest):

Moliyasivaka Sutta
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/samyutta/sn36-21.php

"Now when these ascetics and brahmins have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmins."

Hi Tosh,

Yes, even in those flavors of Buddhism which hold to a very mechanical view of Karma, there are other factors at work and not all events can be attributed in a 1-to-1 correspondence with past volitional actions. I read the Moliyasivaka Sutta to be perhaps discussing that. For examples, environmental, natural biological and like causes are not Karma(Kamma in Pali). As a Sri Lankan Teacher explains ...

Buddhists believe that man will reap what he has sown; we are the result of what we were, and we will be the result of what we are. In other words, man is not one who will absolutely remain to be what he was, and he will not continue to remain as what he is. This simply means that kamma is not complete determinism. The Buddha pointed out that if everything is determined, then there would be no free will and no moral or spiritual life. We would merely be the slaves of our past. On the other hand, if everything is undetermined, then there can be no cultivation of moral and spiritual growth. Therefore, the Buddha accepted neither strict determinism nor strict undeterminism.

...

Other Factors Which Support Kamma

Although Buddhism says that man can eventually control his karmic force, it does not state that everything is due to kamma. Buddhism does not ignore the role played by other forces of nature. According to Buddhism there are five orders or processes of natural laws(niyama) which operate in the physical and mental worlds:

seasonal laws(utu niyama) physical inorganic order e. g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains, etc. the biological laws (bija niyama) relating to seasonal changes etc., the kammic law (kamma niyama) relating to moral causation or the order of act and result, natural phenomena (Dhamma niyama) relating to electrical forces, movement of tides etc., and psychological laws (citta niyama) which govern the processes of consciousness. Thus kamma is considered only as one of the five natural laws that account for the diversity in this world.
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspa ... ists05.htm

I personally do not totally reject the possibility of Karma, by the way, and believe it one very possible explanation of why we each popped up alive on this planet, but some rich and some poor, some healthy and some sick etc. It could be, and certainly something is very strange about how each of us seemed to just pop up into the lives we have despite all the seemingly greater chance, in this wild universe, of our never having been born at all. Therefore, since it seems that so much good fortune went into my having been born alive at all ... then why as a human and not a dog? And if going so far, I might ask why in my reasonably comfortable situation, and not some harder life?

However, the question is just not so important to me. As I wrote in the opening post:

Now, don't get me wrong: I believe that our actions have effects, and I believe that we create "heavens" and "hells". I see people create "hells" within themselves all the time, and for those around them, by their acts of greed, anger and ignorance. .I see people who live in this world as "Hungry Ghosts", never satisfied. I also believe that we are reborn moment by moment by moment, so in that way ... we are constantly reborn, always changing (the "Jundo" who began writing this essay is not the same "Jundo" who will finish it). Futhermore, I believe that our actions will continue to have effects in this world long after this body is in its grave ... like ripples in a stream that will continue on endlessly.

But what about those future lives, heavens and hells? Will I be reborn as an Asura or a cocker spaniel?

My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

Gassho, J

[Khalil Bodhi]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

Rev. Jundo,

I hope I'm not being too forward when I ask this but if there is no rebirth no re-becoming, then why not just wait for death or even hasten its arrival? For me the renunciation and restraint of practice doesn't always seem to justify the pain if this were all there was.

[Jundo]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

Rev. Jundo,

I hope I'm not being too forward when I ask this but if there is no rebirth no re-becoming, then why not just wait for death or even hasten its arrival? For me the renunciation and restraint of practice doesn't always seem to justify the pain if this were all there was.

What pain? Or, better said, what suffering (Dukkha)? (because suffering and pain are not the same in a Buddhist sense. Read more on the difference here).

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2942

In Prajna, there is no suffering in this wondrous life, right here ... even though there may be physical or mental pain sometimes, sunny days and rainy days. One can be free in this life without need to run to or wait for any other (a Mahayana and Zenny perspective, perhaps a bit of another flavor from the Theravada you are most familiar with). When the gap vanishes between the little self and all the world ... no way to run from this world, nor any other place more Peaceful to go.

Gassho, Jundo

[Khalil Bodhi]

Re: Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

Thanks you Rev. Jundo.

Deep bows.

Gassho,

Mike

[Thane]

Hi Jundo

Many thanks for posting this as part of our study of case 8 in the Book of Equanimity. This is a very useful teaching and i found Stephanie's description of the fox koan very helpful.

I have thought about the issue of karma and like you i tend to see the six realms as existing very much in our own minds. By this i mean our own actions send us to hell, animal or asura realms by our wrong or right thinking depending on the realm. I remain open to the fact that rebirth actually happens, that some of our karma moves on to others lives in the future but i don't have a fixed view on how that happens. I do find it interesting to note that many of the great Buddhist teachers seemed to have believed in karma and rebirth and to my eye they were right on everything else so why not this subject? This makes me keep an open mind.

Thanks again for your teachings.

Gassho

Thane

[Mp]

Wonderful teaching Jundo ... I have a thangka of the Six Realms of Samsara hanging by my door, it is a great reminder.

Gassho
Michael

[Jundo]

An interesting essay from Western born Theravada priest Shravasti Dhammika points out that, even in the old Suttas, the historical Buddha said very little on the mechanics of rebirth ... and much was added later.

I personally feel that Buddha was a man of his times, and believed much that the surrounding society believed.

--------------------


The Buddha On Rebirth



The first Buddhists regarded life (jiva) as a process of consciousness moving through a succession of bodies, death being only a momentary event to this process. This phenomena is sometimes called `moving from womb to womb' (Sn.278) or more precisely, rebirth (punabbhava, D.II,15). Later Buddhist thinkers explained rebirth in complex and minute detail - death-proximate kamma (marana samma kamma), last thought moment (cuti citta), relinking (patisandhi), the underlying stream of existence (bhavanga sota), etc. Interestingly, none of this is mentioned in the Sutta Pitaka, much of it is not even to be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It is the product of speculation dating from the early centuries CE onward. This is not to say that such concepts are valueless, but it is important to distinguish between early, late and very late Dhamma concepts.

The Buddha mentions rebirth often enough but what does he say about the actual process of rebirth? The answer is `Not very much'. The Buddha considered death to have taken place when bodily, verbal and mental activities stop, when vitality (ayu) and heat (usma) cease, and when consciousness disengages from the body so that it becomes suspended (acetana, M.I,296). The consciousness `moves upwards' (uddhagami) and then `descends' (avakkanti) into the womb, i.e. the mothers newly fertilized egg (D.III,103; S.V,370), finding `a resting place' (patiññthà) there (D.II,63). I assume that these `up' `down' description are only metaphorical.

Some Buddhist schools teach that after death, consciousness hovers in an in-between state (antarabhava) for a certain period before being reborn. Others, such as the Theravadins, assert that rebirth takes place within moments of consciousness disengaging from the body. The Buddha suggests that there is an interval between death and rebirth. He spoke of the situation `when one has laid down the body (i.e. died) but has not yet been reborn' (S.IV,400). On several other occasions he said that for one who has attained Nirvana there is `no here, no there, no in-between'(S.IV,73), presumably referring to this life, the next life, and the in-between state. He even said that in certain circumstances someone might attain Nirvana while in this in-between state. He called the individual who achieved this `a Nirvanaized in-between type' (antaraparinibbayi, S.V,69).

When the consciousness is in transition between one life and the next it is referred to as gandhabba, and the Buddha said that this gandhabba has to be present for conception to take place (M.I,265). For most people the whole process between death and actually being born again is unconscious (asampajana), although a few spiritually evolved individuals can remain fully aware during the transition (D.III,103). The question of exactly which point the consciousness finds `a resting place' in the fertilized egg or fetus so that it can be considered a new being, is nowhere addressed in the Tipitaka. Whether or not it is mentioned in any later Buddhist literature I do not know. Can anyone help? This question is important because it has a bearing on the abortion debate. Certainly, the earliest Buddhists considered abortion to be wrong (D.I,11; Ja.V,269).

http://sdhammika.blogspot.jp/2013/03/the-buddha-on-rebirth.html