SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Who Is a Priest ...

[Jundo]

Who is a Zen Priest ... and how to nurture their Training?

And who perhaps is not?

These are difficult questions, especially in our little Sangha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qme6WWhROeI

Listen Through our Treeleaf Audio Podcast HERE:
http://treeleaf.podbean.com/e/july-2...o-is-a-priest/

[Kokuu]

Thank you, Jundo.

Really interesting thoughts and much to mull over even for those of us who practice as lay people.

Deep bows
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Onkai]

Thank you for this talk, Jundo and everyone for the discussion. I have to say that the teachers, priests in training, and other active members of this community are both helpful and inspirational to my practice. I'm grateful for the Treeleaf experiment.

Gassho,
Onkai
SatToday

[Koushu]

Jundo;

I have found your talk an inspiration, to learn from are hardships is of great importance, but I believe and in the way of your speech I understood that it is not only learning from the hardships but being able to walk through them with a heart and mind the is calm and a smile of compassion.

I was also moved to reflect upon my journey through the spirit since I was a child, I have touched upon the monastic and have left the come close to priesthood three times now. Each time my heart was there but my mind was moved by fear and uncertainty, so I took my leave. Yet here I am once again, this both my mind and heart are on the same page.

If I may share this small story. A week ago I was fired from my job because of a conflict of interest with one of the owners. My wife asked me what are you going to do now? I sat down and was overcome with laughter, soon my wife and my parents were laughing, then we had a good cry followed by another good laugh. When we all calmed down and wiped away the tears my wife looked at me and said I know what you will do and that is live. Wherever the winds take that is where I will go for I must learn something... We all do.

Thank you so much Jundo
Gassho

Oh I'm not totally unemployed I still throw papers as a form of early morning meditation before zazen.

Sent from my X9 using Tapatalk

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thanks and Metta to all.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jinyo]

Thanks Jundo - have only just seen this.

In the main I agree with everything you say but would maybe add that I can see no point at all in training to be a priest unless one intends to be very actively involved in bringing Zen to a wider community.

That may sound harsh. Expressing Zen through art/writing/ etc may be a wonderful expression of Zen that we can share with others, but I'm struggling to see how that might be equated with a 'priest' path.

In a way I'm surprised to find myself holding a conservative view but I would not trust my own (or another person's motives) if it wasn't very clear that that person was striving hard to to fulfil responsibilities and commitments to a wider community. I feel that has to extend beyond the internet because one's practice and commitment would need to be nurtured (and tested) in the wider world (beyond the obvious concerns of family life, job, etc)

I understand we've 'talked' about the following thought and you don't necessarily agree with me - but I think it's really necessary to be able to function in the outside world on many levels - to be able to establish a bricks and mortar sangha - to share in the rituals/history/teachings with others in a concrete physical space (beyond the virtual) to be credible as a priest.


That is not to disavow at all what happens here - Tree Leaf is a wonderful Sangha - but it is so because of your years of experience/knowledge/faith in the practice that is played out in the virtual and concrete world.
I think its going to be a very hard call for unsui to follow and I think you're right to toughen up (because that does seem to be what is happening?)

For myself - I would like to see an additional category of training - for those who are very committed to this path - but do not feel up to the challenge of priesthood.
The Christian religions seem to make a space and opening for this that has a degree of formality/training- not sure if there is any such opening in Zen?

Anyway - just some thoughts,

Gassho,

Willow/Jinyo

sat today

[Jundo]

Thanks Jundo - have only just seen this.

In the main I agree with everything you say but would maybe add that I can see no point at all in training to be a priest unless one intends to be very actively involved in bringing Zen to a wider community.

That may sound harsh. Expressing Zen through art/writing/ etc may be a wonderful expression of Zen that we can share with others, but I'm struggling to see how that might be equated with a 'priest' path.

In a way I'm surprised to find myself holding a conservative view but I would not trust my own (or another person's motives) if it wasn't very clear that that person was striving hard to to fulfil responsibilities and commitments to a wider community. I feel that has to extend beyond the internet because one's practice and commitment would need to be nurtured (and tested) in the wider world (beyond the obvious concerns of family life, job, etc)

I understand we've 'talked' about the following thought and you don't necessarily agree with me - but I think it's really necessary to be able to function in the outside world on many levels - to be able to establish a bricks and mortar sangha - to share in the rituals/history/teachings with others in a concrete physical space (beyond the virtual) to be credible as a priest.


That is not to disavow at all what happens here - Tree Leaf is a wonderful Sangha - but it is so because of your years of experience/knowledge/faith in the practice that is played out in the virtual and concrete world.
I think its going to be a very hard call for unsui to follow and I think you're right to toughen up (because that does seem to be what is happening?)

For myself - I would like to see an additional category of training - for those who are very committed to this path - but do not feel up to the challenge of priesthood.
The Christian religions seem to make a space and opening for this that has a degree of formality/training- not sure if there is any such opening in Zen?

Anyway - just some thoughts,

Gassho,

Willow/Jinyo

sat today

Hi Willow,

I so much agree with your words. For most priests, especially in the West, that is the needed role.

Yet too, throughout Buddhist history, there have been special categories of priests who were not that. Priests who just cooked in the kitchen feeding the Sangha, such being their ministry. There were priests who were gardeners or builders who maintained the temple structures. Priests who were artists and poets more than any other role (for example, the great Haikuist Basho always dressed as a Zen priest, and it was not clear if he was or was not ... perhaps he just wore the robes ... and yet, WHAT POEMS!) ...



These days there might be priests who are primarily software writers and programmers! Writing code for apps and games to spread the Dharma! (Why not?)

Maybe not every Priest needs to be on a Path to be a "Teacher" in the way it is usually thought of in Western Buddhism, i.e., someone who gives talks and answers questions about Dharma, leads Ceremonies of various kinds, passes on Traditions to the next generation. One can be a "Priest" whose ministry is cooking, art, social work, software design, gardening ... the sky is the limit if there is Buddhist and Zen Practice and substance involved and helping the sentient beings.

However, if one is going to "Teach" in the way of someone who gives talks and answers questions about Dharma, leads Ceremonies of various kinds, passes on Traditions to the next generation, explain and administer Precepts, then I insist that the person know their stuff, and not muck up the ceremony and Traditions too terribly thank you, is ethical and "other" directed. Willow, your description is right on the mark!

We may come to have such multiple paths, e.g., someone who was going to be a "priest of Zen art" or "priest of the electronic Dharma" only without being on Track to give Talks, lead Ceremonies, explain and administer Precepts, etc. We also can continue to soften the hard borders between the traditional Sangha categories of "Ordained Lay Male Female" in this Sangha, embodying all.

Nishijima advocated a form of ordination that fully steps beyond and drops away divisions of “Priest or Lay, Male or Female”, yet allows us to fully embody and actuate each and all as the situation requires. In our lineage, we are not ashamed of nor try to hide our sexuality and worldly relationships, nor do we feel conflicted that we are “monks” with kids and mortgages. When I am a parent to my children, I am 100% that and fully there for them. When I am a worker at my job, I am that and embody such a role with sincerity and dedication. And when I am asked to step into the role of hosting zazen, offering a dharma talk, practicing and embodying our history and teachings and passing them on to others, I fully carry out and embody 100% the role of “Priest” in that moment. Whatever the moment requires: maintaining a sangha community, bestowing the Precepts, working with others to help sentient beings. The names we call ourselves do not matter. In Nishijima’s way, we do not ask and are unconcerned with whether we are “Priest” or “Lay”, for we are neither that alone, while always thoroughly both; exclusively each in purest and unadulterated form, yet wholly all at once. It is just as, in the West, we have come to step beyond the hard divisions and discriminations between “male” and “female”, recognizing that each of us may embody all manner of qualities to varying degrees as the circumstances present, and that traditional “male” and “female” stereotypes are not so clear-cut as once held. So it is with the divisions of “Priest” and “Lay”.
http://sweepingzen.com/eight-ways-gu...-zen-buddhism/

It is all part of the great experiment.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyonin]

Hi Jundo,

For some reason I missed this teaching when you first posted it, but I just saw it and it was just the perfect time.

In my humble opinion, we become priests because we know at heart we are here to give and to serve. To live by the dharma and to pass it on. We are here because we understand there is an endless path we must walk and because we know Zen Buddhism works as a medicine to all the craziness of the modern world.

We need more silence. We need more stillness. And at the same time we are noise and movement. And in the middle there is us living by the dharma.

Well I be a teacher or be transmitted? I have no idea. But I sure do what I can to help the living beings around.

Thank you for this teaching.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Geika]

Just to clarify, our unsui are the same as monks and nuns, right? Committed to the Dharma, but not necessarily going to be a teacher? To me, "priest" carries a more responsible connotation than "monk", so I wanted to make sure I know what is meant by "priest in training".

Gassho, sat today

[Jishin]

That is not to disavow at all what happens here - Tree Leaf is a wonderful Sangha - but it is so because of your years of experience/knowledge/faith in the practice that is played out in the virtual and concrete world.
I think its going to be a very hard call for unsui to follow and I think you're right to toughen up (because that does seem to be what is happening?)

I agree.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Just to clarify, our unsui are the same as monks and nuns, right? Committed to the Dharma, but not necessarily going to be a teacher? To me, "priest" carries a more responsible connotation than "monk", so I wanted to make sure I know what is meant by "priest in training".

Gassho, sat today

"Priest" and "monk/nun" are Christian words that don't quite fit the Asia terms, and were stuck on when Westerners came to Asia in the 19th century. The term I very much care for regarding Zen clergy might be closer to "Sangha Friend" or "Sangha Companion".

By the way, "monk" and "priest" are both very imperfect names. The words "monk" and "priest" do not really work as good translations of the Japanese terms, and were picked, obviously, from the Judeo-Christian vocabulary of Western missionaries in the 19th century. "Priest" carries the feeling of working some power to intervene with God/the Spirits, and most Zen "monks" in Japan now only reside in monasteries maintaining celibacy for short periods as part of their training ... so both words are not good fits (except when the person is actually residing in a monastery and might be described then as a "monk". Of course, many "Zen priests" in Japan and China do reside in temples in which they are largely concerned with performing funeral and other ceremonies for parishioners to appease the spirits, bring good fortune or the like. In such case, "priest" is not inaccurate to describe such folks.)

So, better than "priest" or "monk, " I often use "Zen clergy". One of the many Japanese terms usually (and awkwardly) translated as "monk/priest" in English is actually closer to "Sangha companion" , which I care for very much ... 僧侶 ("Soryo", the first kanji derives from the "san" of Sanskrit sangha = community, and the second means companion)

So "Buddhist companion" or "Sangha Friend and Companion" may be the most accurate for a monk.

There is also a nice Japanese term which fits well, especially when the "priest" is guiding a local parish temple: Obousan (お坊さん) or Bouzu (坊主). Literally, the derivation in Chinese means something like "keeper of the sacred precincts," although most Japanese do not think about that literal meaning.

As well, someone who has been Ordained, but is still in Training, is not considered a full priest ... and we call them "Unsui" ... clouds and water, for they should have the flexibility to flow so. Around here, I often call them "priests-in-training" or "novice priests". Maybe I should better call them "Sangha Companions in Training!!"

Below is my usual comment about all these names (plus others like Roshi and such) ...

Gassho, J

====================

------------------------------------

What is the meaning of Master, Reverend, Osho, Roshi (and "Sensei" too)?

In Japanese Soto, "Roshi" just means literally an "Old Teacher" and does not imply any particular rank or attainment beyond being a fully ordained priest who one wants to refer to with some respect due to age or the like (the Rinzai folks use the term in a much more specific way ... see this Wiki for more details).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C5%8Dshi

Soko Morinaga, a well respected Japanese Soto Zen teacher, once famously said, "A roshi is anyone who calls himself a roshi and can get other people to do the same."

The Sensei/Roshi ranking found in some Western Sangha is largely an American invention. A "Sensei" in Japan is a general title that can be applied to anyone from a school teacher, to a lawyer or doctor, to a politician. It is NOT a common title in the Zen world in Japan to denote some particular rank or attainment, and its use in the West for Zen teachers is pretty much a complete Western invention. There is no sense in Japan or China that "Sensei" is a lower rank, or less attained than a "Roshi". [ONE WOULD NEVER CALL THEMSELF "ROSHI" AS SOME TEACHERS DO, and to do so is even considered to be in poor taste ... rather like "His Honor" the judge calling himself "My Honor".] From a Japanese language/cultural point of view, it is rather amusing that in the West teachers are making artificial ranks based on those terms, or calling themself by such title.

"Sensei" is a word that just means some kind of teacher or doctor or counselor in Japanese, and is a respectful term of address for any grade school teacher, dentist, doctor or politician in Japan. It has no particular meaning in Japanese Buddhism, and the fact that it has somehow become an official rank in some corners of western Buddhism is totally an American invention.

In the rules of the Soto-shu in Japan, an "Osho" is anyone who has received Dharma Transmission (plus has done all the proper paperwork, ceremonies, and paid the needed fees to Soto-shu). Again, the Rinzai folks define the term a little differently. The term "Osho" comes from the Indian "acharya", which is a guide or instructor in religious matters.

In my view, "master" is someone with some "mastery" in an art or tradition to pass on and pass down ... from carpentry to medicine to martial arts to Zen Buddhary. It need not mean the "master" is perfect (one can be a "master carpenter", yet not every corner will always be smooth; a "master surgeon" cannot cure every patient, and even the most gifted may sometimes make a bad cut). However, one should be pretty darn skilled.

"Reverend" is a nice general western term to refer to clergy or a minister.

By the way, "monk" and "priest" are both very imperfect names. The words "monk" and "priest" do not really work as good translations of the Japanese terms, and were picked, obviously, from the Judeo-Christian vocabulary of Western missionaries in the 19th century. "Priest" carries the feeling of working some power to intervene with God/the Spirits, and most Zen "monks" in Japan now only reside in monasteries maintaining celibacy for short periods as part of their training ... so both words are not good fits (except when the person is actually residing in a monastery and might be described then as a "monk". Of course, many "Zen priests" in Japan and China do reside in temples in which they are largely concerned with performing funeral and other ceremonies for parishioners to appease the spirits, bring good fortune or the like. In such case, "priest" is not inaccurate to describe such folks.)

So, better than "priest" or "monk, " I often use "Zen clergy". One of the many Japanese terms usually (and awkwardly) translated as "monk/priest" in English is actually closer to "Sangha companion" , which I care for very much ... 僧侶 ("Soryo", the first kanji derives from the "san" of Sanskrit sangha = community, and the second means companion)

So "Buddhist companion" or "Sangha Friend and Companion" may be the most accurate for a monk.

As well, someone who has been Ordained, but is still in Training, is not considered a full priest ... and we call them "Unsui" ... clouds and water, for they should have the flexibility to flow so. Around here, I often call them "priests-in-training" or "novice priests". Maybe I should better call them "Sangha Companions in Training!!"

In my view, for a Teacher who has received Dharma Transmission and authorization to Teach, the best translations might be "Companion" "Guide" "Teacher" or even "Rabbi (my favorite, which also means "Teacher")" or even "minister".

A very nice old term for a Buddhist teacher used in China is "shanzhishi" = a "good wise friend" (善知識, Sanskrit kalyanamitra.)

BOTTOM LINE: In my case, just call me Jundo or or Rev. Jundo (or Rabbi) or "Hey You" or 'Teach or Cap'n Jundo. Maybe, in a few years, you can start calling me Admiral Jundo. Call me Roshi or Sensei or "Whatsya-say?". I like "Dharma Friend". My father from the Bronx used to say, "Call me whatever, just don't call me late for dinner"

A rose by any other name is still a rose. A lemon by another name is still a lemon.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Geika]

Thank you, Jundo, I was mistaken! Gassho

Sat today

[Shokai]

Thank you Jundo, for the 'clear' statement of the case at hand. it is very difficult for anyone with a background in other traditions and cuitures to grasp the concepts you refer to. This is obvious in the Buddhism that is practised in North america and perhaps Europe as well. However as an Unsui, I continue on my merry way and you can call me Shokai.

Sat and gassho,

[Theophan]

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,
Theophan
(Sekishi)

Sat today

[Jinyo]

Thanks Jundo - is it Ok if I play devil's advocate?

I would suggest that out in the world the names we call ourselves - the labels we attach to - really do matter.
Someone coming to Zen/Buddhism with no prior knowledge/understanding will probably have immediate (and possibly clearly defined) connotations around the label 'priest' or 'trainee priest'. If we are about softening boundaries, introducing broader connotations maybe the label really does need to be changed. I like the word Unsui - though it's maybe a bit esoteric - 'Sangha companion in Training' is possibly too long but I prefer it.

Secondly - does having a ministry necessarily equate with priesthood. I can see that collectively a sangha could be said to have a Zen ministry (the vow to save all beings) etc, and that by taking the precepts we collectively embrace a commitment to a certain way of being in the world. In that respect we all embrace a ministry - but to be a priest would seem to imply something in addition.

So I do feel some division needs be held between 'priest' and 'lay' else we could end up with a muddle. Maybe to be a priest should involve more than a desire to serve - else it's almost like we're grading that desire - it's like we're saying it's all the same really but a priest's desire is a bit stronger or manifests in a particular way. I'm not at all clear about this?

I would hasten to say I'm not questioning any individual's motives here - it's just the nuts and bolts of the whole process.

As this is an experiment maybe we should go for broke - take the whole edifice apart and see how it might be put back together? It would be interesting to share with others how they might like things to change - what to retain and build on - what to discard?



Willow/Jinyo

sat today